Is this a normal class for KS1 SATs

[Vickster99]

Hello everyone,
I am just trying to gauge where my Y2 daughter sits compared to her peers. I mainly want to know whether she has might have a chance of getting into one of the local super selective grammars or whether its not worth bothering. I know its early but around here people get tutors in Y3 or Y4, some even do it earlier!

Anyhow, she is a bright child who attends a fairly bog standard state primary. I've received her KS1 SAT marks and she got a scaled scores of 113 in both reading and maths. I thought this was amazing but I happened to glimpse the mark sheet for rest of the class and noticed there were 3 other children in her class with the same marks or higher.

So my question is - would a Y2 class with 4 kids getting SAT scaled score marks of 113-115 be exceptional or is this fairly normal?

I thought 116 was the highest score. So I would your daughter is doing very well and would stand a good chance of getting into a selective school.

That sounds about right, percentage wise, though every class is different.

Honestly though, if you have to tutor from Y3/Y4 I would question whether your child is suitable for grammar school.

I would also question what you are doing looking at the mark sheet for the other children in the class?

The top mark is 115. I would have thought 3 children in the class getting 114/115 was not standard across the country with the newer more challenging tests. Given the expected pass level is 100, i’d think it is a fairly high performing class. I think my daughter’s class would probably be in the same ballpark but they do have a number of very high performing kids. So an able class above the statistics mean.

The actual SATs tests will only be used as one piece of evidence in the teacher's assessment for the end of KS1.

From what I can tell from the statistics at assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/654859/Phonics_KS1_SFR_Text_2017_.pdf the percentage of children assessed as working at greater depth were:

Maths - 21%
Reading - 25%
Writing - 16%

It would be unusual to have 4 children getting such high SATs scores at my DD's school, but it's also a school where it's recognised that a lot of the children are starting school at below the national average. Your school may well have a different demographic.

So if your DD's teacher assesses her as working at greater depth then the chances are that she will be in the top 15 - 25% nationally (depending on the actual 2018 results). Would that be enough for a place at a super selective grammar? (I don't live in a grammar school area so have absolutely no idea).

The other thing to bear in mind is that a lot can happen between now and the grammar school tests. It doesn't necessarily follow that the children with the highest scores at KS1 will still be at the top by the end of KS2.

Forgot to add that those results were for 2017!

Is it standard to get the results? My son is Y2 and I was under the impression we wouldn't get them (his annual report is next week) do schools decide?

I taught Y2 for many years and in an average class I would say 4 children attaining very high would be a good year but not hugely exceptional. I would have expected to have between 2-4 at each extreme and the rest spread across the middle. Iam more worried that you saw the marksheet that that is a bit worrying for data protection at the school...

^what @katycb said.

BoneShaker Thank you, that's very helpful. The grammars near us probably take top 5% or even less so she's probably not quite there. I do realise a lot can change in the time available but the local secondary is gang infested and not an option so some planning is required well ahead of time.

Kit10 our school provided SAT marks as standard but if they don't you can ask and they should give them to you.

katycb yes agreed. The teacher had all the marks in plain sight on their desk at parents evening so it not like they posted them online or something but ofc it would be better practice to just write down individual marks which would stop slightly naughty parents like me working out their child's place in the class.

OP the proportion of children getting exceeding in all three areas is going to be lower than the children getting it in one area, so if your DD is exceeding in all three she is doing very well. Don’t assume she isn’t there, necessarily. But also it is worth thinking about how she might do in a highly competitive environment which has pressure to do well. For some they will love it, and others will hate it, irrespective of their academic ability.

Our school doesn't give the results so I have no idea!

Vickster, it is important to realise that the KS1 SATS tests by themselves do not say anything about greater depth/gifted etc and there are no statistics on them (the results are not even collected, let alone reported anywhere). We literally do not know how many children achieve which scores on the tests.
Also, the tests are not intended to 'measure' greater depth, I believe, just 'meets expectations' or not. The tests are not designed such that the questions get harder and only 'greater depth' children would be able to answer them. And the test ceiling is pretty low.

The stats that we do have (and have been mentioned by PPs) refer purely to teacher assessment. I should think that most children who scored around 109/110 in the tests were assessed as 'working at greater depth'; and there will probably be more of them in the 'curve' than of children scoring 113-115. So if 21% of children got 'greater depth' in maths, that doesn't mean that 21% got 113-115 - on the contrary, I would think that at least 75% of these 21% scored below 113. That would leave us at around 6% scoring 113-115.

But really, there is no way of knowing what the distribution of the test results is, as this data does not exist.

For contrast, our school frequently reports around 40% greater depth (teacher assessment) in reading and maths, so greater depth alone says nothing about grammar school potential. But again, I have no way of knowing how many of these 'greater depth' kids achieved 113-115 in the tests.

OT but I thought the results weren't released to schools until 10 July - did the school 'mark' them themselves first?

NotAQueef, this is KS1 SATS. The tests never leave the schools. The test results are not reported anywhere, are not collected anywhere except within the schools.

The teachers mark the tests (sometimes with moderation) and use the results (along with all the other assessments they made over the year - which might also be moderated) to inform their teacher assessment of the children. This teacher assessment they have to 'report' - and this is what we have statistics on. There is nothing to be 'released' to schools.

Brilliotic Oh i didn't realise that - thank you.

In our school in a year of 90 pupils around 5-8 per year get to the local grammar (and we are in a big grammar area). In my daughters year around 10 will go for it - so it sounds fairly normal in my demographic (again very close to the grammars

Tutoring around here is from Year 5 - I hate it but when the local test covers all of the year 6 curriculum you have no choice.

I see it as training for a marathon - my husband, a competent runner, can run a half marathon but would need to put in consistent training to run a marathon. I on the other hand could not even run 5k so there is not point me even trying. You need to be able to do a half marathon for the training/tutoring for 11+

It may be normal depending on the socio-economic make up of the area you live in. We live in a University city which is home to a lot of academics with a training hospital, so home to a lot of medics, close to London but a beautiful place to live, so home to a lot of city types.

Therefore it stands to reason that these high achieving clever adults would have similar kids.

Honestly though, if you have to tutor from Y3/Y4 I would question whether your child is suitable for grammar school

The vast majority for children now are tutored for the 11+ test, either through a tutor or by their parents at home. You need not spend lots, but finding out what the test in your area will involve and getting the relevant books and getting your child to practise will help. Little and often is best. Dd used to like doing the NVR tests in particular.

If you have a child who by natural intelligence or by hard work is able to get in to grammar then you will have a child who either by natural intelligence or hard work will get by in grammar. GCSEs and A levels only test what they have learnt, not how they have learnt.

@Hiddeninplainsight Do you know how many children get working at greater depth across the board in KS1? I’m interestested to know but (obviously) can’t ask at school.

@TheWineDarkSea
Quoted from @Brilliotic from another thread! “Well at KS1 (end of Y2) in 2017 11% nationally got greater depth in all three Reading, Writing and Maths. End of KS2 (Y6) it was 9%. However there are regional differences, and big differences from school to school too.”

I didn’t know but I clearly spend too much time reading threads on mumsnet!!!

Indeed, Hidden!

Our school publishes the results on the school webpage. They will say which percentage of the children got at least 'expected', and which percentage got 'greater depth', for each subject reading, writing, maths (and science) and combined RWM. They also give the same figures for the LA, and for nationally. So you can see at a glance that our LA outperforms the national average, and our school outperforms the LA ;)

(This year's figures aren't out yet though, that is, the school will know their figures but not the LA/national ones yet.)

Maybe if our school's results weren't so good they'd be more cagey about them... they are all about results there. Much to my dislike.

Thanks, both! It gives me an idea of where she is that is otherwise quite hard to get. She's pretty good at hiding her light under a bushel, in order to fit in.