grrr... comprehensive maths

[vrijeme]

Just a rant.. I'm expecting the comprehensive enthusiasts to violently disagree with me.

DS1 is in year 10, Ds2 in year 8. Both excel at maths. For the second year running, DS1 got a merit on the UKMT Kangaroo. DS2 got his first merit on the junior kangaroo. Both achieved the best scores in the school, not just for their year.

Additionally, DS1 has the head of the maths dept teaching him and got a near perfect score on some recent big exams. DS2 also tends to come top, or second top (there's another boy just as good as him). Ds1 has no one who comes close with results etc.
DS1 is very bored in maths lessons. The teacher/ HoD knows and says he will do something about it, but never does. I've spoken to him 4 times over three years, so there's no way that he's unaware.
DS1 feels that the lessons aren't for him and that its a punishment being made to sit there listening to the same stuff over and over.
However, i understand the teacher's position about the number of times he needs to go over things again.
DS1 has a talent for maths but its going to waste because he is so unhappy in maths lessons that he's beginning to really dislike the subject. the teacher knows this too.
Now to the point of my rant. Both boys were due certificates for the UKMT merits. The HoD held onto them for ages (months). I wondered if maybe he was saving the for the awards evening.
But no. Neither boy got any recognition at the awards evening. Someone who achieves approx 25% lower scores in maths than DS1 got the maths award - he posted his photo with it online.
As to the UKMT certificate, the HOD stopped DS1 in the corridor a couple of days ago and gave it to him. Ds2 was given his yesterday, tucked into his maths homework.

The school is proudly comprehensive. I'd argue that they don't understand the meaning of comprehensive, because it seems that outliers are excluded.

PhilODox - he didn't reach the Olympiad, but he did get well over the merit threshold for the kangaroo round, so I'd say he must have found his limit. That's the achievement: to do some work at or very close to your limit.

Isn't that almost the definition of achievement?

He could extend himself at home, but he won't do that whilst he feels so turned off about maths. I've done everything I can to persuade him to do otherwise, but the experience in school is making him want to associate maths with feeling very unhappy.

This is sort of the core of what I've been trying to say since the first post.

Lurkedforever1 - Unfortunately, he's not rebel at all. Its how the teacher has managed to get away with ignoring his needs for so long. Another, more needy or demanding person might decide to put their energies into disrupting the class, or shout out answers to every single question so that the teacher can't do his job properly, but DS just sits there quietly and endures it. Sometimes, when it feels especially bad, he rolls his eyes, hoping the teacher will notice (which he doesn't).

The teacher gives them tons of work to do in class. I'm not sure if they get any homework - DS doesn't - but its enough to keep him busy, if not engaged.

@OhYouBadBadKitten I've spoken to the teacher and the Head of Dept. Then, last September that became one and the same person, as the HoD decided to take the top set GCSE class.

Above that, i could try the head of year, but is that the same level as the head of dept or not? then there is the SLT - various deputy heads etc. Would they help? Could they order the teacher to stop saying he'll start to make the work challenging and actually do it?

He doesn't get any homework? And in class he's being given a large volume of repetitive tasks that he already knows how to do? That's really not on. I would take it further, I think. Maybe to HoY in the first instance as the HoD is the teacher in question.

Yes, that's right: no homework and lots of "sums" to do that test the same skill over and over (and over and over... until the lowest ability student in the room has done enough examples for them to have grasped the concept and then the class moves on. Obviously, the more able the student is the more examples they've ploughed through because they have completely understood it for a long time before they finally stop practising it).

Then there are the revision lessons - DS understood Pythagoras in year 6 - Its not difficult is it, really? - but that didn't stop the class spending a week this year revising Pythagoras just in case anyone had forgotten what they were all taught years ago and have revisited every year since.

I asked DS last night, how much of the week on average he spends having to think in a maths class - he said 5-10 mins (Out of 200). The rest is listening to stuff he already knows or doing yet more examples - gaining mastery - of stuff that he mastered a long time ago.

He really values those 5-10 mins. I've offered to show him things and he's said no, it will just mean that he'll not even get the 5 mins in class that week when he isn't bored.

It should be possible in a subject like maths to have relevant extension work that is interesting and challenging, for those that are more able than others. It sounds like this teacher is not differentiating at all, for any of his pupils. All the work is geared to the less able pupils in the class. There must be plenty of other children who have grasped the concepts too, a bit slower than your DS maybe, and don't need that level of repetition either. A quick google for example found this: mei.org.uk/gcseextension which could be used to keep him occupied in lessons. Anything like that is surely more appropriate than endless repetition!

Yes, DS won't be the only one who finds it too slow.

Ds says that mostly the whole class gets the same exercises to do but some times the worksheet has two options - easier and harder - and the teacher invites the class to choose which side. So sometimes, he offers some kind of differentiation but even then he could acknowledge that there are more than two ability groupings in the room.

I'll show those worksheets on the link to Ds and ask if this is the sort of thing he is given in class?

I think it really sounds like you are getting nowhere with the school.
My ds understand Pythagorean theorem in yr4(and I don't think it's difficult at all), yet he is doing normal yr4 stuff at school. He is inventing challenging work for himself at school by modifying stuff, and hasn't complained of boredom. He has free access to whatever he wants to do at home, and he self learns everything.
I agree they spend quite a lot of time for maths at school, but there are other things too.

Can you change school? Or encourage him to learn from internet?

Or any chance of different attitude from new teacher next year?
Sounds like he has fallen into negative spiral, you need to pull him out of it.

I’ve just asked my DS about the handing out of maths certificates in his school. He says that the UKMT/Kangaroo certificates were just given out in class without any ceremony. Nobody got an assembly mention. There were even a couple of boys who got through to the Olympiad round but there was no formal public recognition of that either. Whatever the type of school – DS attends a grammar school - I don’t think it’s that unusual for the maths teaching staff to keep the whole business low-key.

In some ways I feel it’s probably not a good idea to be too focussed on the glittering prizes or too reliant on recognition when it comes to maths. Once you get to university level, opportunities for winning prizes thin out and if the intrinsic joy of figuring stuff out isn’t enough to motivate you, it might be hard to stay on track.

My DB has always liked maths and has a maths-related job. He wasn’t really stretched at school but there was never a sense that if the teacher didn’t up her game he would lose interest completely. When he was around 15/16, he got involved in coding (at home) and I can remember him reading Gödel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter and getting a lot out of it. Maybe something like that would appeal?

I really think there is room for optimism here even if the school is falling short. Nowadays, there are so many maths-based resources and activities that can be explored at home independently. And if the OP’s DS feels he doesn’t want to avail himself of those, maybe maths isn’t his true passion and something else will capture his interest in due course.

He's halfway through the GCSE course, so changing schools isn't really an option e.g. in History they are doing a specific combination of topics, studying towards a specific exam next June. I may well be able to find another school that offers History GCSE, even the same exam board, but the chances that the teacher there has chosen the same combination of options and is teaching them in the same order as the current one, is pretty low. Then if I did manage to do that, I'd have the same challenge for English literature, and all the other subjects. So, moving at the start of year 11, isn't really an option unless you are moving to a new part of the country or something and you really can't put it off until the GCSEs are done.
However, changing for the sixth form next Summer, is a different story.. that would be a good time to change.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) the school tends not to assign different teachers for the second half of the GCSE courses, unless the teacher resigns or something that can't be helped. The students benefit from the continuity generally, but DS would probably have been better off with someone else in this instance.

DS used to self study when he was little too. Not so much now though. he also used to be an avid reader - always had a book in his hand when he was seven - but that has tailed off too as he got older. I think they just change as they grow, but I'm hoping that one day he'll find his love of books again.

I'm toying with the idea of asking DS to tell the teacher - ultra politely - each and every time he doesn't feel challenged by the work. Maybe just for a fortnight. Then the teacher can be under no illusions that just because DS is quiet does not mean that he's engaged. If he doesn't address the lack of challenge, i'll book a meeting with him and ask if the HoY can be present. (Maybe. Not sure. Does anyone think this is a good idea?)

@OutwiththeOutCrowd - thanks for that.
Maths isn't Ds1's true passion. Ds2 maybe it was and maybe it will be again, but DS1 only ever did it and gets interested when it makes him think. He treats it with the same interest that some people do Sudoku or a cross word puzzle (i.e. its ok to pass the time but you don't live your life for it).
What interests DS seems to be general learning, not one specific subject. e.g. he's so interested in politics now, that he pleads to stay up to watch question time on Thursdays. Or he treats something that I personally find quite boring on national geographic like its revealing the meaning of life to him!
You can't build a career on that though. What he is really good at is maths, so i was thinking maybe he could train to be an economist or something as it would use the maths but macro-economics would be varied enough to pull in some of the more general interests, like politics.

You seem to be expecting your son to get all his school satisfaction out of having difficult problems in something he is already excelling at. School isn't like that.

There are lots of online self-directed study programmes if he really wants to extend his math skills. It sounds like he needs different challenges.

Yes, I am puzzled by him not being able to say "Oh well, maths is a bit crap and it's a shame and it shouldn't be like that- but at least I know I'm streets ahead. Now I'm going to concentrate on getting streets ahead in everything else too. Only 3 people expected to get all 9s in 2018? Right, just watch me!"

@BertrandRussell The fact is not everyone is like you. People react differently to the same situation based on their personality and experiences. Ds is who he is. I think he's overall a good person, but is he perfect? No.

It would be really nice if he would react how you think he should, but he doesn't. The fact is that he struggles with this. Maybe you wouldn't, but unfortunately you aren't 15 and sitting in his chair in the classroom.
So then you might ask, is it unreasonable for him to feel like this about maths given how long he's been bored for? You would, apparently, have the strength of mind to just switch it off and maybe daydream through the class for 3 to 4 hours a week. he doesn't. he sits there, thinking about what the teacher is saying, what he's just been asked to do and feels unhappy because he is so bored. Then some kid puts their hand up and asks a question, so the teacher stops the whole class so they can all listen while he re-iterates the whole thing again and DS just sits there thinking "Why do i have to listen to this for the second time in 20 minutes?"

I, personally, think Ds has done well to endure it as long as he has. I'm expecting him to continue to endure it, and to me, there's a measure of self-discipline there which you don't always find in 15 year old boys. However, he's not able to sit there as you suggest and just hum to himself "tralalala this is great because its so easy, i will never have to swot for this come exam time and that means I can write an extra couple of practice PEAs for English", but that does not diminish him as a person.

Have you thought about moving ds2?

My kids school is a comp and they have academic award ceremonies. Dd will sit GCSE Statistics in y10 and GCSE Maths and Additional Maths in y11.(might be Further Maths) They don't do UKMT and while she's top 10% of A-set, she's not as outstanding as your son so finds it easy but not outrageously so. She enjoys the fact that maths is easy because it means that she has more time for other subjects.

I'm surprised that you would encourage ds1 to do A-level maths at the school. If he's not catered for now, how will they cope at A-level? In your shoes, I'd have him sit as an External candidate and have him sit other A-levels at school. Home study dying at his pace sounds like a more enjoyable learning opportunity than going at school pace.

Of course it doesn't diminish him as a person! But what are you doing to help him adjust his thinking a bit? Why are you concentrating on the maths, which, frankly, it doesn't sound as if you have a hope with? Why aren't you asking all the amazing, helpful people on her how to support your son rather than how to change the school? Obviously the school ought to change, but it's pretty clear that it's not going to. So in a spirit of pure, unenlightened self interest, your son needs to learn to think about it differently. I am sure there are people who will have suggestions about how to do that.

I wish I had been more encouraged when I was younger to make the most of the opportunities I had, to turn every situation however challenging (including the challenges of boredom) into maximum positive, rather than getting frustrated that the world was a place that didn't perfectly suit me. I had to wait until I was in my 40s to figure out how to be resilient. Resilience is something I'm trying hard to foster in DC.

I don't see why he should be expected to endure it. Tolerating boredom is a different thing entirely when it's continuous, rather than occasionally. Some people might day dream, some are disruptive like I was, some might just have an abnormally high level of tolerance for being bored. Most people don't, and that includes ops ds, who isn't a dreamer or a rebel either.

I think it's very hard to know exactly how difficult it is unless you've experienced it. I can still remember the horrible sinking feeling of 'not this again', day in, day out, year after year. And I had it easier because I started entertaining myself in school. So I have every sympathy with ops ds, and don't think it's just a case of learning to tolerate it. All you learn from it is that formal education is boring, nothing will ever be challenging and it should endured rather than enjoyed. Hardly the way to encourage a teen to think.

I wonder why maths is such an area of focus, when it may well be that your son just isn't that keen on it, despite being very capable at it.

Getting put off by class mates asking a question and the teacher going over a topic again seems a bit intolerant of others tbh. He's in a group, the teaching can never be totally tailored to him unless you get a private tutor. Doing endless repetitive worksheets is a problem as I said before, but he does need to be able to tolerate other children not being as able as him.

@eyebrowsonfleek - I'm thinking about it now. I know it sounds odd but I've been aware on and off that its not ideal, but what has really brought it into focus is the last term. I contacted the teacher and asked for his help - big stuff like try to provide occasional stuff for Ds to do and one little thing i.e. say something if in his opinion the UKMT is noteworthy.

He has done neither, even though he said he would improve Ds's experience in lessons and he told me that he thought the UKMT thing was noteworthy.
It was only when Ds1 came home and showed me the certificate and described how the teacher had handed it to him as he passed in the corridor, that I really started to feel angry. Then I wondered (to myself) where exactly DS2's certificate had got to, and my question was answered when Ds2 put it on the hall shelf. i saw it, asked how when he got it and he said it was inside his homework book when it came back from the teacher. Then I looked at the school newsletter, twitter feed and website and sure enough, i found that last year they did make a big deal of the students who only qualified for the junior kangaroo. So they can do it, but they pick and choose when to bother.

I'm not keen at all to have DS1 do his A levels there. But that's what i think now. A few weeks ago, when i spoke to the teacher for the second time this year, I was beginning to have doubts but I didn't know then what I know now (about how the teacher really won't lift a finger to help a student in his class).

"I don't see why he should be expected to endure it."

No, I don't either. But if the poster is who I think she is, she's been trying to make this school change for ages. It's obviously not going to-so it's time to change focus.

@AssassinatedBeauty - its just that its constant. Every lesson. DS knows that the teaching cannot be tailored for him.

Actually I think he knows that better than anyone given that it has never been pitched at a level that is even remotely suitable for him, whereas presumably for most people it is at least some of the time.

Bretrand - i promise I've never tried to make this school change, not even once. I know my limits and I can see that I'd be up against a machine that I'd have no chance against.

I did try - and failed - with the primary school with one particular teacher one particular year, but that's a different (and now very old) story

I agree the school won't change in terms of actually providing any mathematical challenge. But I do think there is scope for the teacher to at least let him do something else unrelated. And it galls me that through being well behaved he gets a worse deal than he would if he was badly behaved in the same circumstances.

Believe me, I know, I've been there.

I wouldn't entertain the idea of staying with this school and this teacher for A levels, that would be signing up for more of the same.

At some point in his maths lessons, the teacher must introduce new concepts to your DS and that at least must be not as boring as the rest of it? Even if he picks it up very quickly. Unless he's self taught himself everything for GCSE at home already, and the stuff in class is a repetition of that?