Maths....

[oldbirdy]

My ds (9) is very good at maths. Never managed to get school to do anything extra but git him an 11+ tutor recently who is very excited about him, says he could do higher maths GCSE now with just a little teaching of content. She is talking about maths Olympiad etc when he's older and says he's the most capable mathematician she has ever had. She can't keep him on after Feb for personal reasons, and I don't want to let him drift again like I did for all these years at school. She will 'pick him up' again end of the year but does anyone have any suggestions for good resources he can work on in the meantime? He's better than me already, my maths is very average. Are there junior equivalents of the Olympiad for example or other organisations for talented mathematicians? He comes alive when he's working on a really hard puzzle, bless him.

Sorry? I am not bitter or sarcastic and haven't been on this thread. I just don't think doing exams early is a good idea.

why Nigel Kennnedy wanted to play grade 8 pieces when there was lots of grade 1 pieces he had not yet studied.

This is implying that any piece that is not an exam board grade 8 piece is going to be easy, which is as nonsensical in maths as it is in music. There is an awful lot of maths which can be pursued to a very high level without the need for much of the GCSE curriculum. Then there are mathematical activities that can be done to a high level like chess or coding. Why make a bright kid do histograms in primary school just so that they can sit GCSE early?

When I said that doing GCSE before secondary school would be a pain in the arse, I didn't mean just inconvenient. I don't think it's good for the child either. The school is faced with 5 years of timetabled maths lessons in which they can teach that child nothing. The child ends up in the class with a book 'teaching themselves'. Usually this child is advanced mathematically but immature socially and academically, so this is not ideal. The parent will then push for them to do A-level early, to continue the acceleration. It's not very likely that an A-level class will be conveniently timetabled at the same time as the child's maths lessons (not least because they don't have the same number), so the child spends some time in A-level lessons with sixth-formers, other times with their classmates, and both times possibly isolated. They miss out on A-level teaching and have to catch up the missing content by themselves. They miss out on forming a study group with like-minded sixth formers.
Then you have the issue that the student finishes A-level, Further Maths and so on well before the end of secondary school. What then? Get on your bicycle with them like Ruth Lawrence's dad and take them to university early? Top universities counsel against teaching them university content early, so you end up killing time at the other end of their school career.

I've seen a student sit GCSE early and accelerate through secondary school and I don't think the whole experience was good for them, socially or mathematically.

The UKMT can offer enrichment work and mentoring which can be done alongside the secondary curriculum.

it is not just secondary schools who don't like maths GCSE taken too early, universities don't like it either.
My ds is also an exceptional mathematician. When he was in Year 6 we spoke with a family friend who is a maths professor who counselled against it, suggesting UKMT, and other sideways stretching. he has had various tutors for shortish periods - what worked really well was young maths graduates who did 'fun' stuff like the maths around black holes and off the wall geometry.
He is now year 10 - still hasn't taken GCSE but competes in the Olympiad, is doing an Edexcel stand alone qualification in Algebra and bizarrely is taking the C1 and C2 AS papers alongside his usual class assessments (just for a bit of variety the Head of Maths says!)

But why? Can you please give me a reason why it's not a good idea doing exam early?.
Richmal gave very good reason why her dd took it early, and it's her dd's choice.
I haven't thought about it really, and I don't think I will let my ds take it early, but I think he is capable. (He can do most of ks3 maths and some ks4 already.)
But it just makes me wonder why you never seem to give any positive comments to able children who are struggling in normal state school system.You always care so much for disadvantaged children, but not able disadvantaged children.???????? why?

I've just written a whole post saying why, irvine!

Cross posted, noble.( I didn't see your post while I was typing! Too slow!)
I do really agree with you. And I am very grateful that I had great input from teacher like you. And I have followed your suggestion.(Doing more problem solving rather than just let my ds go forward.)
My post was purely responding to the comment from Bert, and it doesn't actually reflect what I do with my ds.

:) Irvine, good to hear your DS is enjoying the piano, I wish I'd learned it when I was a child!

Thanks, noble.
Your words to me is like a real god's wisdom. (And my beloved mrz's.)

Some of the current UK International Olympiad Maths squad members started taking part in IMO when they were like 12 years old. Suggestion that they shouldn't go forward when they were that age would be ridiculous for them because without at least A Level Maths they wouldn't haven't been able to even take part in the British Maths Olympiad, let alone IMO.

For exceptional kids, they do need a bit of guidance. It could be Olympiad Maths or something else for the very gifted but at some point they will need to learn new concepts, techniques and skills. There are only so much you can learn pre-algebra. The child might not take the exam early but they will have to know certain things. Taking the exam early or at the same time as everyone is merely a matter of personal choice.

ghgn, bmo 1 and 2 are accessible without doing a levels, well, I'm not sure that you can call bmo 2 ever accessible! BMO2 needs some specialist knowledge, but apart from factor theorem, there's not really anything that a level would bring you. You can get access to all of the material you need without picking up an a level book.

ok, I was really rude and searched, so .I see you teach a levels :) It is perfectly possible though to do very well in bmo 1 without having done your gcse.

and it's not true about the youngest squad member being in imo since 12.

Not only I teach A Level, I coach some kids that have been called up to the UK Olympiad training squad and also competed for my country when I was a kid, although not to IMO level :)

You can't do BMO1 well without some topics that are A Level equivalent. In theory you don't need them but most of the combinatorics stuff are beyond A level understanding, some of the trigonometric identities are A Level standard, all the inequalities, sum of series and so are the polynomial stuff.

When I first started coaching Olympiad, I did think the same but quickly realised that good understanding of the topics mentioned above would make BMO1 a lot more accessible.

:) I can't argue with that!

I think I got his age mixed up but quite certain Harvey Yau competed in IMO when he was in year 9, still quite impressive.

Needing selected topics which are on the A-level syllabus isn't the same as needing A-level maths.

I coach some kids that have been called up to the UK Olympiad training squad

That's pretty cool, does your school have lots of competitors or do you do it for the UKMT?

I agree.

However, the syllabus for Olympiad Maths is pre-calculus so apart from that, all of the core part are included anyway. Stuff like binomial expansion, factor theorems, partial fractions etc are basic skills that they need so I did not mention them. Sometimes, we use vectors, matrix and complex numbers and the FP series stuff to solve the same problems just for fun :)

I work in a normal grammar so not like some of the top private schools that produce a few every year :)

I started teaching some kids a few years ago Olympiad Maths just for fun. Some of them seriously got into it so I started coaching them every week. Now, they got through to BMO1 easily. A few have been called up to the summer camps and the Olympiad training camps. I am hoping one of them will make the UK squad this year for one of the competitions. She is seriously good. She is at the same level as I was at that age and I was coached from a very young age. (The rumour about kids in South East Asia got sent to Maths camp for months is true :))

They are very lucky to have a teacher who can coach them.

Yes, y9 - I went and found again the 2014 IMO report because this line made me laugh when I first read it: "The maths competition community have been aware of Harvey for a long time, and we have been waiting for him to become old enough that we could reasonably take him to an overseas competition without risk of attracting the attention of the social services."

I did not intend to do it at all and I just stumbled upon the coaching part when a boy I taught told me that he was bored. At the time, I thought that I was doing an ok job with differentiation, providing extension work, open ended investigation etc although I was quite bored myself teaching the same stuff again and again. So to shut him up for a few lessons, I dug out an old combinatorics problem and told him to do it. He came back next day with an almost correct answer and that was when I realised I that I found someone.

It was also the same year I read about Harvey Yau and I thought maybe I can produce one like that so I don't have to be bored any more :)

Noble, I do take your point. But I say again, I in primary dd had been offered some other course than having to sit through explanations of maths she already knew, followed by questions she could already do; if the answer to differentiation had been something other than to convince the parents they were deluded in their child's ability, if someone could have explained to us that secondary would not have likewise meant wasting years arguing over what level dd was, then were may well not have seen early GCSE as the best option.
At least with A*GCSE the pointless discussions about what level she was stopped. The system was failing our daughter and if we had just told her to be quiet and put up with it, we would have been failing our daughter.
If we had been offered an alternative of what dd would be learning which would be adding depth and breadth outside the GCSE curriculum , perhaps showing how she would be mentored on UKMT type problems, of course we would have given serious thought to that alternative.
Taking the GCSE came from years of frustration of primary going out of their way not to assess dd.

I can understand your frustration when sometimes teachers, due to various reasons, cannot assess a child's ability if themselves haven't had the same ability or seen someone with similar ability. If they haven't experienced it, it is very difficult for them to see the potential. The thing with Maths I believe you need to have something to aim for. It could be an exam, a certain grade, a certain level of achievement like getting to BMO round or get called up to the UK squad etc. Without it, just doing Maths for the sake of it or as a hobby wouldn't get you far because you will lose interest sooner or later. It is a shame that kids like your DD does not receive the attention thay she deserved. When I mentioned starting an after school Maths club for exceptional kids in Primary school, people normally think I am mad but there are so much wasted talent out there. Without the right guidance, some of them will lose interest in the subject forever.

Some of the current UK International Olympiad Maths squad members started taking part in IMO when they were like 12 years old.

It's pretty dubious that starting a child on Olympiad training at 12 is in their best interests - again, children tend to burn out in maths by the age of 18 if they do so. Sure, lots of countries do start Olympiad training from a very early age. But how many of these countries produce Fields medallists?