Grammar schools

[var12]

They aren't a magic bullet that will solve all the G&T problems, but IMO they are a fantastic step in the right direction.

I suspect that they will be up and running too late for my DC to benefit but at least other children will have the chance to do a bit more than just follow the national curriculum because that's all the school aims to do.

I never liked Theresa May, but had she let people know that she would reintroduce grammar schools, I'd have been willing to campaign for her.

Var we have children routinely leave all the way through school. I said goodbye Friday to a lovely eal child in year 10 as the grammar has a test day every year to fill places. My school is massively oversubscribed too- we had over 80 appeals.
Does it work? I think some children thrive in this system. It all depends where they come from (primary) and their background. There are always going to be those who fall through the cracks. And not always for the reasons you might think.

That's really interesting, wannabe. I like the idea of movement between the two, especially if it can go in both directions and without shame (which is what my Dutch friends say they have).
May I ask about something that has come up a lot recently - do the higher ability students who are in the comprehensive side feel isolated? Is it difficult to cater to their needs in a comprehensive setting when there are grammar schools close by.

About the issue of teachers leaving the profession, tbh I think there is a crisis coming which will render all govt reforms useless whether they would have been otherwise successful or not. Identifying the root of the problem and stopping the drain is probably (IMO) more important than tinkering with education policy.

Honestly no they aren't isolated they tend to stick with their own (and so do the shits) but no we don't do enough for them or push them enough and that's discussed on a regular basis.
The teaching crisis.... God knows. Things have changed. It's not the respected profession it was. Children are worse and behaviour excused. Exclusions are difficult. Targets are impossible. Parents can be downright nasty and undermine you. But I chose to teach in the unit some of the week so get used to being called all sorts..... And they all have an Achilles heel. You just have to plug away....
When my first child went to go to secondary I would have killed to have him attend the grammar. But now, on number three, he passed the test and chose the comp. grammar wasn't right for him. But I am glad I had the choice.

My great grandfather, grandmother, a great aunt, my mother and about 10- 15 cousins of my mother were all teachers/ headteachers, all of them either dead or retired. However, not a single person born after 1955.

When I look at the family history, I can see that being a teacher was something that brought status and a comfortable lifestyle. i don't know how it went from there to where we are now.
It wasn't the end of corporal punishment and with it the loss of a major tool to deal disruptive pupils because that only stopped in the 80s and already the 60s babies were choosing to be accountants or pharmacists instead. I don't know what it was but it feels like it has something to do with the attitude that society in general and parents in particular take to teachers that must make your jobs infinitely harder. I don't know if the government leads the way on this, or just reflects it, but I've watched for years from the sidelines as the government has tried to clumsily steer schools and treat the teachers without respect.
I love children and enjoy teaching them things, but I know I could never hack being a teacher. So, I take my hat off to you!

But about grammars - I sort of have the choice too, but there's only one grammar and I didn't really think about it, taking the comprehensive route instead. However, I am realising now that I made a mistake there as far as Ds1 is concerned (and maybe Ds2 who always aims to deliver a performance that doesn't stand out from whatever class he is in).

Other posters have been telling me that the 20% most able have to be in the same school as the remaining 80% for the sake of the remaining 80% not being labelled a failure. Is that true though in this day and age, that someone who does not pass their 11+ considers themselves a failure?

Just a tad oversimplified, no, var?

Still, you're nothing if not consistent...

OK then, explain it in your words as I am getting weary of having mine sniped at. Or don't.

I'll go for the latter; you're not interested in my words, after all.

I'll wait for you to follow me to another thread then.

Vac if you want to chat sans stalker message me :)

Var12 Is your DC2 in yr4? If so you could take a look at your local/nearby Grammar now to find out how they will cater for your DC (just be prepared for them to try to bush off the questions of how they will stretch your DC, I didn't get a straight answer from any of them).

I found the areas where the schools varied the most to be languages, Science, sport & clubs, everything else was pretty much the same as every other school in the area.

For your DC2 - there is a lot of movement for 6th form. Ask at the Grammar school what their transfer process is and their requirements. If they have vacancies come up due to DCs moving out of the area it would be worth asking about in-year transfers etc. depending on places in your DCs chosen GCSE subjects. If you are keen on a Grammar education for your DCs, I imagine many would be more than happy to have them join :-)

I'm not sure how far the Grammar school is but many have buses which they will provide a time table for.

You may have already covered all the above, but just in case...

It depends on the area ime.
I have heard in rl and so many times on here about the comps that out perform the grammars.
I have no reason at all not to believe every single one.
There are areas with comps that don't provide for G&T because unfortunately they have too many problems at the other end of the scale.
There just isn't the funding for the resources, human or otherwise.
Grammar schools are the only way forward for G&T at these schools.
There are some areas where there would be no detriment to the children not passing 11+ the schools would be exactly the same, with mostly the same kids, even if they changed the name from comp to secondary modern.
Its horses for courses, and what works well in one area, might not in another.

I like the idea of movement between the two, especially if it can go in both directions and without shame (which is what my Dutch friends say they have).

Only a very small percentage of children cross streams in the Dutch system. It's pretty obvious which stream a child will end up in already at the age of 4.

ReallyTired Wed 14-Sep-16 14:26:47

"My worry is that the new grammars will be stuffed to th gills with hot housed middle class kids. A really gifted child from a low income family might miss out if their parents don't enter them for the exam."

Mine too. Off the top of my head I can think of the following categories who would be likely to miss their chance of getting into grammar school:

the bright child who has recently arrived in the country and not yet caught up on their English

the bright child who happens to be ill at the time of the 11+

the bright child who happens to be going through a bad period of bereavement/family upheaval/other trauma

the bright child whose parents do not believe in grammar schools

the bright child who does not get any tutoring due to lack of money

the bright child who semi-deliberately does badly in the test for fear of losing all his/her friends and being seen as betraying his/her class (plenty of evidence that this happened in the olden days)

Otoh I think there is a very good chance that a number of not-terribly-bright middle class children will get through with intensive coaching.

"Or maybe it is fair to take from the most able to give those who need more help?"

It may not be "fair". But pragmatically, with limited resources, it is the least not fair option.

Cody most of the reasons you have given would give a child a chance (and a strong one) at appeal in my area for a grammar place coupled with evidence from the primary.

But for many of those reasons parents wouldn't know about appeals and wouldn't be interested in doing so.

Another reason: bright kids don't get put in for the grammar tests because parents are worried about costs of uniform/transport/trips at the grammar school.

BTW I have seen examples of all of Cory's cases amongst university students.

I completely disagree the appeals system is huge where I live. I also disagree that families would prevent their child from going due to finances. The uniform etc is no different at our local grammars to the comps.

You are extrapolating from your own localised experiences. Just because there are lots of appeals does not mean to say that kids don't still end up in the wrong place, particularly in opt-in grammar schools. I see some very, very bright kids (A stars at A level) who were in "high schools" rather than grammars from 11-16, for reasons given above.

Many families do believe that grammar school will cost more even when it doesn't. And sometimes going to the grammar really does cost more. From where I live the nearest grammar costs £500 per year for public transport. This is out of the reach of some families (who are not pupil premium/FSM and would not be eligible for grants to cover the costs).

Of course I am and so are you. I went to a faith school and travel was expensive. I don't think it's unique to grammars.

But faith schools also have an intake which is skewed socio-economically - this is why they are popular amongst "middle class" parents. Selection of pretty much any kind skews the intake.

Obviously I can't prove this, but I would put money on the kids who get into grammar schools on appeal being even more likely to be from "privileged" families than those who get in on test alone. The process of appeal is daunting, and requires a lot of confidence and understanding of how they system works.

Bringing this over from the Education Forum, posted by HPFA:

schoolsweek.co.uk/epi-grammar-schools-report-the-7-key-findings/

That EPI report, especially the headlines, is a bit dire and there are vested interests behind it (something that's true for quite a lot of prominent voices in a stupid debate that rarely touches or dwells on the important issues).

For instance Key Finding #1 amounts to telling us that bright children are as likely to get five grade Cs in a comp as they are in a grammar. Yes I felt so much better informed, so blisfully converted to their cause, that I didn't need to read the rest.

Obviously I can't prove this, but I would put money on the kids who get into grammar schools on appeal being even more likely to be from "privileged" families than those who get in on test alone. The process of appeal is daunting, and requires a lot of confidence and understanding of how they system works.

Bertrand, I think you are spot on there. We have a choice of 3 or 4 comprehensives, and all of them have said - we're looking around right now - that they have never turned down a child on appeal.

Which I think translates as, we want those kind of middle class children whose parents are invested in their education and are prepared to jump through heaps like appeals.