Does being gifted equate to a 'special educational need'v

[TabithaTwitchEye]

Just that really? DD is not yet school age, but I just wondered whether anyone knew whether being on the highest end of the spectrum equates to having a special educational need...

In reality, at the very top end of the ability range, I would say yes.

In the eyes of schools and educational authority, no it doesn't. Some schools will treat it as such - producing IEPs when they were in use for example - but they are under no obligation to.

Thank you, that's useful to know.

I'm currently wondering whether it's worth the expense of specific testing. It sounds as if it's probably not.

In terms of getting the school to do something, almost certainly not. But if you do it to find out what you're up against, and work out what the best course of action might be, then it can be helpful.

Also worth bearing in mind that it's often worth waiting until 6 for testing. Before that age results are not that accurate.

Agree with getin. I'd also add that it's not something I'd worry about yet, if the school is actually willing then proof/ official recognition isn't necessary to get needs met.

The answer is not totally straight forward as you can be twice exceptional so be gifted, but also have an SEN such as dyslexia. Having a child in this group is very difficult as they often have coping mechanism so achieve enough to make school happy, but nowhere near their true potential.

Short answer is in the real world use of the words, then yes. But in practice, help is only available if you are behind.

DS1 is twice exceptional. If he only had the SEN (dysgraphia), he'd get help. However, he can turn in relatively good work anyway, so the only help he gets is an extra 25% of time in exams. I don't think he really shows what he knows in subjects like English, and he often gets frustrated and upset with himself over it, but as far as the school is concerned, what he does is good enough.

Its been up to me to work out the coping strategies e.g. special pen, advice on writing less but making every word count etc., etc. God knows if I am doing it right, but I've tried and failed to get real help for him for the SEN, or the high IQ or both and its not going to come.

Yes, but if you are in a mainstream school you have to find support yourself.
If they re completely off the scale you'll really need a specialist school as even normal private schools may not be able to support their needs.

I also think you know yourself if they are gifted, you don't need testing to prove it.
Obviously its required for schools if you are seeking recognition and support, but not essential for you as parents to acknowledge.
We knew when dd was 2.5 and at 11 hasn't been formally tested. It also depends in which subject, it may not be picked up by teachers if its a non curricular subject or one not studied until high school.

Lots of dotty parents think their child is gifted. I don't believe that parents are in a good position to assess whether their child is "gifted".

When your child actually starts school you might find that there are other children who are equally bright. Children who are so gifted that normal classroom teaching cannot cater for them are very rare. Even then issues tend to crop up futher on in education than reception. Reception is play based and more able children can access play based learning at a higher level.

For example the type of child who gets A in GCSE maths age seven and A in maths and further mahts at nine and completes a maths degree in two years is in a different league to a child who is a free reader in reception because mummy has hot housed them.

I would disagree with most of that.

I think the research shows that parents are actually good predictors of whether or not their child is gifted, and the education system does tend to miss quite a few.

And yes, some parents might over-estimate their children's ability, but quite a few don't. (We actually thought DD was a lot closer to average than she actually is and were quite surprised when she started school.) And for some parents - if they are reading fluently at 3 for example - there isn't a lot of doubt.

And for those children, Reception can be hard: they may want to play in a different way to other children, they may want to read more than is on offer in the classroom, they may be frustrated that people don't want to talk about the things that interests them. It can work, with the right teachers, but sometimes it doesn't.

Gee really tired,I wonder if you're my son's teacher. Do you think a child naturally finds maths without being introduced to it by a parent

Agree with really tired.

At this rate every pupil will have a special educational need! There are a lot of smart kids about, few are gifted.

A child will naturally find some parts of maths, the thinking logically in particular, without intervention. But being taught the number system etc will require some input.

I agree with this bit Lots of dotty parents think their child is gifted and could add or delightful or musical or artistic or beautiful etc.

Some of them are right and everyone else can see it too but for others, the parents may be a little deluded. I knew one mother who decided each of her children had a SEN. As she would happily tell you, she couldn't find any doctors or psychiatrists to agree with her but she'd never contemplate that she may have got it wrong especially when she had such difficulty getting them to behave...! Dotty parents!

There are lots of ways a child can be gifted though, most people assume the typical maths and English but these are only just 2 subjects out of many.

Of course a parent can tell, we knew when she was just a tot tbh and at about 5/6 we realised the extent of her gift.
We have bided our time until she is now 11, still never being assessed but everyone who sees her can see immediately.
I think when you are discussing gifted and talented you need to get away from teachers, schools, maths and English and look at the bigger picture.

Its true but if you are good at geography or history or MFL or science (for example) then wouldn't you also probably be quite good at english or maths when at primary school?

Or are you thinking more of drawing and painting or sport?

Do you think a child naturally finds maths without being introduced to it by a parent
To some degree yes, I think they can. Whilst they may need to be introduced to the formal numbering system, then just like a gifted child can learn to read without being specifically taught but work it out because their parent reads to them, a gifted child can learn to do maths without being taught.
DS3, not necessarily gifted but definitely bright, at age 4 having never seen a bar chart/histogram, saw his much older brother's DS1s homework that said something like 1 face = 10 people, and knew straight away how many people in total, how many people in each row even when there was only 1/2 a face etc. DS2 who was 2 years older even when he was explained how it worked just didn't get it.

I think it can be difficult at start of reception to tell properly gifted children; some children, particularly girls, develop an interest in reading at a young age so start school reading well but this progress isn't sustained and others only just introduced to reading at that age catch up. The same thing can happen with maths. It can take a couple of years before it is clear that their progress is continuing at a faster rate. Even then the waters can be muddied by the way they are treated at school (e.g. Being held back to allow the class to catch up). At my dd school about 10% of children seem to start school reading well (ORT level 7 or above) and/or knowing their times tables.

If a gifted child find out everything for themselves then they are just reinventing the wheel. A child might be able to understand a bar chart by themselves, but something like the arabic number system too centuries for very gifted people to work out.

The children who I have met who are truely able have an incredible amount of energy. They often excel at extra curricular activites as well as bog standard school work. A gifted child will take easily to whatever interests them. There are not many gifted children who are solely interested in school work.

ReallyTired. Yes, I know that many parents aren't in a position to assess for themselves, but as a Clinical Psychologist, I complete cognitive/ neuropsychological assessments of children every day. I have good reason to think I'm correct.

I agree that to be good at maths at an early age a child has been taught. However, what one person would call hothousing another would not. Children do learn much faster when taught 121.

Tabitha, how do you distinguish between a child who is gifted and a child who has been taught? Also can intelligence be altered by education or is it set at birth and unalterable? Lastly. is a person's ability to progress at a subject limited by their intelligence?

Just to answer the OP's question, a child cannot be statemented for being gifted.

I agree with getinthesea. That's been our experience, too. YR is tough if what you enjoy is academic work and can't find much common ground with the other kids socially either (not her fault and not theirs, but still tricky).

Three years on and still no friends at school and teased (school deals well when it tips over into bullying) about being the cleverest every day.

School does what it can with differentiation and she's not bored (though not stretched either) but it can't provide a peer group. I think that's the best we can hope for without moving her to a selective school.

Agree with vars123s interpretation of reallytired. Even down to the mum who thinks her kids have Sen. Eg one is apparently autistic because he has ketchup on every meal.
I do understand why teachers and other parents can be sceptical, but that doesn't excuse not catering to them when they do have a gift/ talent.
As reallytired says dd was fine in reception, some slightly differentiated work but mainly just got more time to play. Which was fine by us both. And school with one minor blip otherwise catered for her. And when I went in about the blip (only time), they listened because other staff had noticed she wasn't average and hot housed.
As to how much input was me, not much really. I did the normal things most parents do, like counting apples into a bag in the shop. She just got it quickly, asked questions and made her own leaps with a basic concept to something more complex. I thought up to 4yrs old she was just bright, and ahead of most peers cos maths interested her. It was other people telling me it was something more. And she's not in the uni age 10 bracket by any means.
I think when it's something like maths it's pretty inexcusable for a teacher not to pick up a gift easily. You can hot house all you like, but remembering rules and endless practice only gets you so far, kids with an actual gift at primary age tend to demonstrate the fact they just think differently.

Just, the assessments that we conduct are able to differentiate between innate ability and learning. Innate intelligence is unlikely to be 'altered' by education, however those that have access to education will of course see more 'return', iyswim. I think that you are limited by your intelligence to some extent; yes, hothousing will get some children sitting A Level maths at 8, but for most children, this would not be possible, regardless of what you do.

I suppose its important to bare in mind that things such as GCSEs and A Levels are not a measure of intelligence, per se.

Our local LA believes it is. Gifted DC who have an ECHP or statement for some other reason, also have their high ability listed as a SN. Whether that is always the case, I don't know.

Dd also got things quickly because I told her about them. I doubt she would have been able to understand completing the square a 10 had I not told her about it. I do not think her to be any different from others in how she thinks. Like me, she finds maths easier if she gives things she does not understand a bit of a rest, then keeps returning to it, finding it easier every time. She does get high scores in VR and NVR tests. (NVR on her 11+ was 141) But I do not know if this is as a result of being taught and I would like to know.

Thanks for replying, Tabatha. Sorry I cross posted before reading your reply. How do you distinguish? Is it by IQ tests?