is it usual for gifted boys to have some asd traits?

[nicosmum]

I am trying to figure out if my gifted 4yo has aspergers syndrome or just some side effects from being gifted. (his preschool have said he is well ahead at maths and reading so that is why I make the gifted assumption). the problems are

lack of eye contact
lack of interaction with peers , just likes to do his own thing.
rages at small injustices e.g. if someone pushes in front on a slide, inability to just let it go.

I am trying to get an apt with a paediatrician but it is apparently a long process as need to go through HV first.

I just wanted to ask if other mum's have this sort of issue with their dc?

I've got a girl who's a lot like the children described here. Like the OP's child she avoided eye contact as a toddler, young child. Now she's 8 it's not an issue at all. Very strong sense of the world according to her, not keen on change, not keen on noise and strange places. Again now she's older this is much better. She's matured a lot socially over the last two years. She's always played imaginative games, loves reading, loves history in particular. Huge vocabulary, very questioning and reflective. She has friends but she is also a bit prone to the 'I'm weird' spiral. Definitely bright, definitely quirky

My ds (9) is gifted musically. He definitely had ASD traits but they've largely disappeared and although he's never going to be the most popular boy, he does have a close group of friends he gets on great with.

I find this thread interesting. Years ago, I posted that ds nursery teacher wanted him assessed. But she'd approached it unprofessionally and I wasn't convinced he needed assessed.

I was insulted, called a bad mother etc because according to a lot of posters, I was just in denial. It was a very stressful time and that thread had me sobbing to sleep.

Now 5 years down the line, I am so glad I trusted my instincts as his mum. He did have a speech and language assessment, but she couldn't understand why he was there. He changed schools and was a lot happier and he's flourished.

I read an article once that said this was a very common problem in schools. Very bright boys are being misdiagnosed. Sometimes their brain and development is streets ahead in certain areas but other areas need to catch up.

My ds had problems following instructions, could be repetitive and socially a bit awkward. But we can so easily pigeon hole children. We expect them to like certain things e.g. drawing and dressing up.

Now he's exceptionally talented at the piano and very bright. It makes me sad what happened.

At the end of the day ASD is a serious learning and social difficulty. We're in danger of labelling everyone with a few traits.

i find almost all small children rage at perceived injustices.

My son who has ADHD and a number of ASD traits is now labelled as highly gifted by the school this year.

dc1 is gifted and talented. He has none of the traits you are describing.

dc2 is on the spectrum, has a lot of what you are describing. He is also highly intelligent BUT language issues means he doesn't come as gifted as dc1.

It IS possible that there is some sort of relationship but I wouldn't make it the norm or what is to be expected iyswim.

Having a child with both 'condition' (for a better word) I would follow your instinct AND keep an eye on him as he grows.

Superexcited I know this thread is from earlier this year but Ye Gads do we share the same DS??

DS is now 8. When he was 6, he had been identified as "gifted" or HLP as our school now calls it. They also suggested he be tested for ASD, which we did. The result came back that he was NOT autistic but rather his quirks could be attributed to his HLP.

He also has a very strong sense of right and wrong, rigid in thinking and takes things literally (as I have always done). He is very sensitive to loud noises and still instinctively covers his ears if a motorbike approaches etc.

He has, since the age of 2, fixated on certain themes. All of which contain data funnily enough. Can't get enough of facts and figures on certain subjects. We've had car makes, length of songs on CD's, how many pages in books, capital cities and his current fixation is our local buses (numbers, routes, lengths of journeys) His memory takes my breath away. He has extension maths and English and to be perfectly honest, I don't see any "giftedness" maths wise but then I was pretty crap at maths!

Struggles socially also. He's the youngest in the class but doesn't share many interests with other 8yr old boys (football for example, he's 2 left feet) and his language and "turn of phrase" leaves them stumped. They certainly don't "get" him.

Hi - just wondering if anyone still checks this thread? My son is going through hell at school - he's 4 and in reception - I work at an asd school as a teacher and I'm getting totally mixed messages from my experience and his teacher???

I'm still interested. I leapt on it thinking I'd be hugely reassured but it's more the opposite.

From the OP I'd say an overinflated sense of justice is common in verbally able 4-5 year old children, especially firstborns. It might also be common in less expressive children, they just can't tell us. And playing by himself, or alongside rather than interacting with friends, surely is still in the normal range with a 4 year old. The eye contact might be more of a problem.

My DS is very able in maths but he lacks understanding of language and can struggle with really basic stuff. Yesterday I asked him to bring something from the coffee table and I got lots of aggression and basically snarling from him, because he said he didn't understand. He has derived his own long multiplication methods at age 6 and he doesn't know what a coffee table is. The thing that's been in the middle of our living room for a year. Or he says he doesn't know, anyway. But he reads with nice expression and can be thoughtful. When he has a friend round, he wants to lend them his favourite plate, and he is very affectionate to us on his own terms.

But his play is not like his friends' play. As Shaffron says, we expect children to pretend, to play creatively and draw. He likes to run 4 player monopoly games by himself, or he assembles lego sets strictly from the instructions. No deviation is allowed - if a piece goes missing he will abandon a model he's worked on for hours, he won't accept any substitution unless absolutely identical. He hates to draw because he's always disappointed with the results. He rattles off Strictly stats from last year and got really angry with me today because I couldn't validate his assertion that it snowed on the 2nd Feb. He knows all his classmates' birthdays and who is the 11th oldest girl, etc., and can calculate what day of the week their birthdays are, or were, on. He's been called "Rain Man" more times than I'd like, but I think people mean well.

"Neurotypical" is a funny word. I don't think he is wired quite normally, but we are all different, and someone who can think Y4 maths trivial in Y1 is not thinking "typically". That doesn't mean he has ASD. I think he is just a very "male-brained", very perfectionist, bright child who is not a verbal learner and doesn't respond well to the constant talking everyone else does! I mostly think he can't have ASD, he's in the normal range socially, but every now and again I worry.

I'm very interested in this topic. DS is 2.5 yo and loves numbers and words. Since he could speak he's been interested in bus numbers and prices. He can recognise numbers up to a million. He can also count objects up to 10.

He's very interested in the words themselves - spotting patterns of word endings and using words he's seen before to guess a new word e.g. he worked out microwave from seeing both bits of the word before.

He started preschool part time in Sept. We've just had parents evening and the nursery teacher said they want to refer him to the Senco as he's not interacting with other children and very fixed in his thinking. He likes sorting pens into size or colour rather than drawing. They said he only wanted to do things "on his terms ". He doesn't really do imaginative play either. They said his literacy/ numeracy levels were far beyond expected levels for his age.

What struck me was that they kept saying that they wouldn't be as concerned about his social skills if his Maths and Reading wasn't so advanced. Not sure what that means but obviously worried.

PerkinsRents ,my ds was similar at that age. He was not interacting with other children, and what nursery did was introduced him to older, more mature children and let him join in with activities with them. Also they recommended increasing a number of days for him to attend, so just before starting school, he was doing full day X 5! It did work for him.

He is 7 now, and he still have ASD traits but less obvious and certainly getting better with social interactions. I still don't know he has ASD or that's just his character.

I think maybe pre-school is worried because social awkwardness and be advanced can be either due to pure giftedness or something to do with ASD or other SEN?

Thanks irvine101. I am worried about the lack of imaginative play and not engaging with other kids but it's hard to know whether it's immaturity- he's 2.5 and young in the class, being overwhelmed by nursery as he's at home with us mostly or something underlying.

My ds was seen by community paediatrician for ASD assessment at that age, but result was inconclusive. Since then, he matured and things got better, and his school doesn't seem to worry about it , so we are leaving it as it is for now.

But, seeing someone about it made us feel a bit better, and knowing there are support if we need it.

I think a lot will change as he grow up. I think it's a good thing that your ds's school is aware and keeping an eye on it,

Oh and my ds lacked imaginative play as well, and still is. He is still very logical and scientific so he struggles with creativity(especially writing).

Interaction with other children got better by the time he started school, but he still is a socially awkward child.(Enjoys small group of nerdy friends)

I have one child who is G&T and one who has AS.
I can recognise the lack of imaginative play in dc1 (G&T) and he has never quite fitted in. He also had to have things on his terms, very black and white thinking as a toddler and routine worked much better for us at that age too.
However, he has good communication skills, can write stories wo any issues (so no issue with imagination as such, he just didn't like imaginative play iyswim).

If I compare it with dc2 who has AS, the difference was really visible AFTER toddler years, when children really start socialising (before that they side by side rather than together).
What would make me wonder, more than the 'is very good with reading and counting' is the lining up of pens, the social things and any meltdowns/sensitivity to food/labels etc...

I think that there is this idea that autistic children have some special gift that they excel at when really this isn't the case for a lot of them (if not all) hence the comment from nursery.
However, a chat with the SENCO won't hurt, nor will an assessment if they think it can help.

I skipped a year at primary school as I was so ahead. I had the reading age of a 6 year old at 3. I have autistic parents and a child. I am not autistic, but I believe my advanced reading skills are due to autism in the genes. It was a temporary thing as I am not particularly clever as an adult.

What would make me wonder, more than the 'is very good with reading and counting' is the lining up of pens, the social things and any meltdowns/sensitivity to food/labels etc...

These behaviours are really not that unusual in neurotypical toddlers and young children, though. My DS is still funny about food and clothes and he's nearly 13!

I do think that UK primary schools seem to value what are in many respects behaviours that seem to come easier (or at least earlier) to girls, such as cooperative, primarily verbal play, and lots of imaginative writing (boys do seem to struggle more with putting pen to paper). This seems to lead to suspicions of ASDs where they may not exist. I'm absolutely sure that if we had been in the UK, DS would have been referred for assessment. I am equally sure that while he may have his quirks (socially awkward; food and texture aversions; excessively logical) he is definitely not on the spectrum.

Thanks for all your replies. DS has been more anxious at home (crying when DH or I go out, upset about the end of stories or tv shows) in general since starting preschool so I wonder if some of the more obsessive stuff they've picked up on e.g. lining up pens (which he's never done at home) is connected esp. as they've said he's quite happy there. He's always loved picking up and dropping things: coins, crumbs, soil etc but didn't think anything of it- though I'm now questioning everything. Will chat with SENCO and see whether there's more we can do to help him at home esp. extending his play/ more actively help him socialise.

Mistigri that is a really interesting point about the specific expectations in UK schools.

I honestly think DS would be so much happier if everyone stopped talking at him all the time.

I am also following this thread with interest. Our ds has just turned 7 and I'm starting to wonder about the difference between asd and a quirky bright child. He:

• loves, loves, loves learning. Constantly asking questions, constantly reading and studying (at the moment we are in a chemistry phase... so the periodic table is the current obsession).
• has an amazing eye for detail, notices the spider wrapping up the wasp in a hedge as we walk past etc. Stops to gaze in wonder and ask...
• works things out all the time eg. "if I raise the last sharp in a time signature by a semitone, it will give me the key signature of the piece"
• never gives in to peer pressure and although he has friends, rarely asks to see them or play.
• is very stubborn and strong but yet very caring.
• finds normal play eg. train set very boring and would rather go off alone to learn something
• He read very early, finished all the ORT levels in nursery and read Tolkien in reception.
• constantly moves, runs, jiggles and makes silly annoying noises! Then laughs hysterically at his own noises and jokes.

Are these 'normal' signs of bright child or are they signs of ASD too? He appears to be very loud, lively and sociable but really doesn't relate well to others, just tells them facts!

Starting to worry about the long term friendship thing...

My ds is 7 as well, and can see some similarity, but your ds sounds way more advanced than my ds.

But we always had suspicion of asd from early age.

My ds1 10 is gifted, as with children above he didn't know how to play imaginatively, he's always been a bit left of centre, never fitted in and won't wear sandals without socks, insists on doing shirt buttons up to the top, wears casual tops tucked in and I've always had to cut the labels from his clothes as he notices them there.

Are the tics normal though? We have constant face pulling tics and audible tics such as throat clearing, growling but they come and go. I think his peers have started to imitate them, is there anything I can do?

my experience has been that there certainly is a correlation between children with Aspergers and those who are G&T - not now diagnosed as such; its classed as High Functioning Autism instead.
However, not all Aspies are G&T and not all of those who are G&T have Aspergers / HFA. Not particularly helpful, huh!
Many, but not all, children with Aspergers/ HFA have a special interest about which they know an incredible amount. This is sometimes maths, electronics (my son), trains, or something quite particular. This interest can either stay stable or, for some, change over time as often as once every month or two.

Does your son have a special interest?

How do you define a special interest though? DS is a complete maths geek, and he is such a whizz at it. But of course he loves it, numbers are full of patterns which he adores, and he gets loads of positive feedback because he finds it easy and is so damned good at it. He is also not so brilliant at other subjects, which makes maths all the more appealing. I don't know what would qualify as an aspergers/HFA type special interest as distinct from a very gifted maths whizz really enjoying his gift.

That's a difficult one. Who knows. Does he seek out maths type challenges in his environment and initiate conversations about it all the time? It's often more than about enjoyment and positive attention / being good at it, despite these being valid and positive aspects. Often, talking about a special interest will offer them a sense of security, a topic of comfortable conversation, etc.

I would recommend this book to all of you.

books.google.co.uk/books/about/Misdiagnosis_and_Dual_Diagnoses_of_Gifte.html?id=NQrtt-peg5AC

We went through all this several years ago with DS - I remember several years of worry over it. In the end, I took him for an assessment and it was money well spent and I should have done it earlier. The book talks about the similarities between G&T and ASD and then goes on to highlight the differences. It even talks of them both being on a continuum.

I've been watching some of the "Secret Lives of 5 Years Olds" series and realised with horror that at that age, DS would have been doing an excavation in the garden on his own, perhaps whilst making train noises! He is now a bright 15 year old who is quirky, has friends, is very single minded but definitely does not have the difficulties of someone with ASD.