I feel the exhaustion coming on already!

[var123]

Yesterday DS1 (age 12) tearfully begged me to have a conversation with him. To cut a long story short, it turns out that he's been feeling lonely and starved of conversation for a while.

I am a SAHM mum but I've been busy these last few months, so when he's at home, I've been leaving him to amuse himself. He talks to boys at school but only a couple of words here and there, in between lessons.

What is exhausting me is what he wants to talk about: anything as long as its grown up. So, yesterday, I spent an hour whilst I was making dinner describing the events and implications of the Arab spring, with reference to the Tunis museum attacks last week.
Then we watched the documentary 5 broken cameras on netflix together.
Today, he has asked me to explain bond pricing to him.

I know this sounds like a first world problem, but he was really upset because he's so bored. Whenever we go out somewhere as a family, he wants to be doing something, like bowling or visiting a museum (which DS2 hates).

I don't think i can keep up even though Dh has said he'll help. I just don't have enough general knowledge. We know these are not normal 12 year old interests, so the chances of finding a friend his own age to engage with like this are not very high.

The secondary school is very different from my own schooldays. I don't know if this is how things are these days but the way this school interacts with the children and teaches them is just not something I recognise. Its obviously been a successful strategy so I am not criticising, but I don't get it.

Some differences:-

• The children are called students not pupils. Students used to be people who went on to further / higher education.

• Lessons are delivered as a series of slide presentations. It seems to me a little like learning history by watching every episode of horrible histories. You get snapshots but I don't see how the children are supposed to join the dots and start thinking for themselves.

• The children work to levels all the time.

• The children mark, and give feedback on each others work. The teachers rarely looks at what DS has been doing. I suspect some have never seen anything of his work.

• They don't want to see you at parent's night if your child is meeting his targets.

-There's no concept of stretching the children beyond giving very aggressive targets at the start of KS3. e.g DS came top across the whole year in maths last year, so this year he 's been re-doing all the stuff that he proved he could already do last year.

• I suspect that many of DS's teachers wouldn't even be able to point him out in class, if they didn't have a seating plan in front of them.

• Cover lessons seem to be incredibly normal, perhaps because the school offers good professional development for the teachers so they are often away being students themselves, rather than teaching my son. I looked at Ds's email last week and he had three cover lessons on one day.

Against all that, I just can't see how DS could ever get to know an individual teacher really well, such that he could talk to them. It feels more like he's on a production line.

As a teacher I think what you describe is (sadly) very common. I agree it doesn't sncourage intellectual rigour though.

That sounds pretty grim and soul-destroying OP.

Surely all the children are going home miserable? I would be.

There are certainly things you need to challenge the school about. He most certainly shouldn't be repeating work because he hit his target last year- the target should be adjusted to give him something to work towards. Some peer making is good and helpful to everyone, but homework should still be usually marked by a teacher. At parent's evening you should see whoever you want to- I would insist on it. And do none of his lessons involve discussion and finding things out? Do you know that they are all "talk and chalk" as you describe, or is that the impression you get from your ds

Cover teachers are an issue, particularly as school budgets are pared to the bone. Frustratingly,what happens in our school is that the exam years get priority, so a particularly good teacher is likely to be pinched from the lower years sometimes to boost the year 11 coming up to exams. And of course, people are ill......But do question that too if you think it's happening very often.

The use of student I find annoying too-but is pretty universal. it's supposed to encourage the children to take charge of their own learning rather than be passively taught.

In year 7, his target for maths was 7B and he got 7A.

In year 8, his target is 8C, and he got level 8A (because I taught the level 8 stuff to him - it took about 15 hours in total spread over 10 days. DS had been in a panic that he wouldn't reach this year's target ).
I haven't seen his year 9 target level yet, but since they were set 18 months ago, my guess is it will be level 8A.

The teacher told me she'll be teaching level 8 stuff next term, so the last two terms have all been level 7 topics. He's not absolutely perfect on level 8 year - he's still a bit slow re-arranging formulae. I think I could get him with him doing it well in an afternoon, but what will he have left to learn in the next year and a half, if I do that?

It does look as if, in the short term, you need to move the focus to outside school.

As you've said he's very mature you can talk to him about how school simply isn't going to stretch him in academic terms but he can still use the time there to practise the skills he's less secure in. Really interrogate the extra-curricular timetable with him - challenge/bribe him to try one or two things even if he's not that keen.

It must be very difficult feeling he ought to be more like his brother - separate activities are definitely the way forward.

Hi OP.

I have a son (now 15) who would be considered extremely able and who likes to know a lot of stuff about a lot of stuff .

He goes to a very selective school where the other kids are also able. What I would say is that he doesn't have particularly challenging conversations with his mates. They talk rubbish, mostly. Football, rugby, cricket. FIFA 15. Why Mr X is a complete dick...

However, what he does get is a lot of intellectual stimulation in class and in certain clubs. Lots of 'presentations' where boys are given topics by teachers and must come to school to present to the class (and expect to be mercilessly cross questioned).

I find that, plus the judicious use of audio books in the car wears him out nicely .

What about other subjects?

You've mentioned scouts but could he take on another club/activity? I'm thinking something like join your local Wildlife Trust or archaeology group where there will be activity days with all age groups including adults. The nature of the days is such that there is easy chat whilst doing the doing. eg. DS's tennis coach told me a couple of weeks ago they'd had a good tennis lesson including discussing the pros and cons of cheap products v environmental impact of manufacture in & transport from China ! (DS yr6)

Other subjects are all good, except RE, where DS is apparently going backwards in knowledge - 2 whole levels. The RE teacher is a NQT. DS says that they didn't cover half the stuff in the exam. Moreover, he thinks the 4 good reasons why Christians believe x is actually one good reason re-worded for ways.

I've had a long email chat with the RE teacher who says DS can look up the lessons on the intranet, DS is still attaining good levels relative to the class and if DS doesn't understand something, then he should make sure to declare it in front of all the other children. (Fat chance of persuading DS to do that.) Basically, if it had been a more important subject, i'd have taken my concerns to the head of dept and possibly complained about the teacher's attitude, but its only RE. If DS is right, then the whole class will have done badly and I won't need to raise it. If its just DS, then he can catch up next year.

DT and art aren't so great either in that DS is probably in the bottom third of the class, but there's a good reason for that (DS has fine motor skill problems)

What about a couple of penfriends in other countries who share his interests. Or a scholarship to a good school if he is exceptionally talented and clever.

Don't let that put him off art!

Some of the better galleries hold workshops specifically for teens, where they can learn about art, through observation and discussion, without necessarily having to produce any. Would that be a possibility?

I'm also wondering about astronomy ...

Viviennemary The problem is the OP has just missed the application period. It's very unlikely that any good school is going to have spare places for y/9 at this stage of the year. Not impossible of course.

Being in a "good" ( usually mumsnetspeak for private ) school would not help with the big issue- which seems to be that he has trouble making friends.

If he is not being challenged at school, talk to his teachers. But the main thing is his social skills. Moving him to a completely different environment at this stage won't help that.

Moving him to a completely different environment at this stage won't help that.

D'you think that's quite true Hakluyt? At the moment it seems he doesn't converse with his peers because he's found no point of contact with them.

Meanwhile very single activity that's been mentioned here will be available as standard in other schools - state and independent. It just happens that the OP's school isn't providing things that appeal to her child.

And actually I don't think lack of garrulousness is the problem - just that it's seen as desirable in his present environment. (How I miss HG on this thread ...)

Hakluyt - I think there are two problems and I am not sure one outweighs the other in terms of its impact on DS's current happiness.

As to future happiness. I think they both have the potential to have a significantly adverse effect too.

God, I feel lost!

Secondary is largely the same here re. all of @var123's points. We have also had an important subject turn a bit rotten courtesy of a teacher 'pinched' for GCSE.

Specifically on 'aggressive' KS3, the end-Y7 targets we were given for all subjects were strictly based on KS2 results:

(English + Maths)/2 + 2sublevels

I wouldn't mind so much, but at parents' evening we're supposed to talk seriously about how DD can meet those targets. We get traffic-light colouring based on predicted and target end year levels, so have scary red for a couple of 'new' subjects where a teacher is either trying to make realistic predictions or simply made them up (the assessment is not reliable for some subjects). For maths which is the only subject they set this year, DD and a couple of whizzy boys hit their end-Y7 target in the assessment at the end of the autumn term but their end-Y7 target didn't get changed.

It's all a bit silly. For the imminent next parents' evening my stock retort on what DD can do to improve in anything will be: "Well I suppose she can carry on turning up in lessons until someone teaches her the topics she needs to know to achieve [level N]. Do you think that will happen this year?"

Well, perhaps a way forward is to have a meeting with his Head of Year and his form tutor to try to find a solution to the academic issues? If they can't/won't do anything about it then maybe think about finding another school.

But in my experince, even the very cleverest of boys are not inclined to sit down having deep meaningful conversations about the stock market and global politics- they are far more likely to be blethering on about games consoles, The Walking Dead and Liverpool's chances in the league. Just like grown ups really. So the key is to help him make friends- he sounds as if he's been "burnt" in the past so is reluctant to try again. Then he might find kindred spirits- you don't know who's going to be a soul mate until you get over the first hurdle! Your friends don't have to all be on the same intellectual level as you are.

Your friends don't have to all be on the same intellectual level as you are.

I agree. DS does have two friends, both of whom are nice, friendly, well-mannered boys. I don't think Ds thinks of other boys in terms of how clever they are. i think he has a value system based on football ability and which team they support. So, the good footballers are out of his league, in Ds's opinion, in the same way a supermodel might be unlikely to go out with ??

Thankfully, DS seems to have no opinion about other children's intellectual abilities, except that one annoying boy who keeps asking DS what he's got in tests so that he can try to beat him.

It's all about balance.

You can of course have friends of all different intellectual abilities. And you can have friends with whom you have a fairly light touch relationship, all gossip and laughs.

But IMVHO you do need some friends/aquaintances who are on the same par and who share the same interests. For a serious minded person, spending all day everyday chatting about light hearted things soon becomes very bloody tiring.

If the OP is not getting intellectual stimulation form school or from his friendship group, then he is really quite isolated .

which is why he has taken to leaning on me, i guess. I know that isn't right or good.

DD1 used to go out with DH once a week for tea, it started as just grabbing a bite in between school and netball, they used to chat endlessly about economics, physics and politics and both gained a huge amount out of the time. I think the one on one set up stimulated conversation in a different way from family suppers, or indeed from chats with me.
Maybe your DH could do something similar?

I'm struggling to believe that in a desirable comprehensive (which, OP, is what your ds's school seems to be) there aren't a considerable number of high-fliers.

If your ds is the truly exceptional child, then what I'm saying is probably not applicable (I wouldn't know, because I've never actually met that kind of child), but as several people have pointed out, his interests seem fairly normal for a child of his age. And if he's happy to discuss football, then he's got a natural conversation point.

I do think you seem to be slightly in awe of your son... I think perhaps you need to get out of this mentality. If he asks you something that you don't know, don't feel bad, just tell him to find out (you can say, we'll discuss it when you've looked it up).

And the 'annoying' child who wants to discuss marks with your son may actually be trying to find common ground as a precursor to friendship.

var to be fair, at your sons age, I don't think it's necessarily inappropriate to still rely on parents for a variety of things from emotional support, to intellectual stimulation.

He's still little really.

However, in an ideal world our DC build a network of people going forward and we become less paramount.

Your challenge is to help your DS build that network when his school is not providing very fertile ground.

the annoying child has an equally annoying tiger mother. The boys were in the same primary class together. The mother was very annoyed when Ds started to do well a while after he joined the school. He'd been put in the middle group at first and so she somehow felt tricked when Ds was moved up to the top table.

It sounds unbelievable, but she said as much to me in the playground. On another occasion, in year 6, she was able to tell me all Ds's test results going back months! She could list them from memory, and I can't say that I could.

From other things she has said, along with what other parents have told me, i think her son has built his identity on being top of the class at primary school, and he was upset when DS started to get better marks.

I am not sure I am in awe of DS. More worried than just plain admiring.