My daughter is so clever, but so rude. Help!

[jools35]

This is my first ever message on a talk board, so bear with me. I have just returned from parents' evening where I was told my daughter (just turned 8, year 3 at a local junior school) is gifted and talented. We have always known she is very bright and creative - loves art/music/writing/reading etc. This is great and of course I'm very proud of her, but the teacher was also concerned about her negative behaviour, and said that she can be rude to adults. She has always been extremely challenging at home - has always questioned EVERYTHING and been defiant towards us and unkind to her younger brother and sister. She often seems hyperactive - can't sit still and is always leaping off sofa/tables and jumping around on beds. My solace has always been that she's been reasonably well-behaved at school, but now it seems that has worn off. Any advice out there? I have run out of strategies.
Just to add, she comes from a stable, loving home and we have always done everything to praise her and promote her self-esteem, yet she sometimes says she wishes she'd never been born! I am in despair...

Welcome to MN, jools. I hope you get some useful advice here - good luck.

What kind of things does she say?

Hi Jools35, does she do any extra-curricular stuff - musical instrument, dance classes, sports? My guess is that her defiance is linked to her above average intelligence. Do you think she is being sufficiently academically challenged at school?

wow.. parents evening on a Sunday, how cool is that?
Sorry no advice, just thought it was good to have them on a Sunday!

is she bored at school? how does she find the work she brings home?

do you excercise her enough?
an horu a day remember

Jools, welcome to mn.
I don't have any experience of this situation, but I wonder what other outlets your dd has outside of school?
does she, in particular, play a musical instrument? It sounds to me like she might benefit from being stimulated and perhaps forming a good relationship with another adult outside of the family.
I think it might be helpful for her to direct some of her energy towards playing something loud and physical....
maybe she might benefit from going for a run at he end of the day, or even going on some exercise equipment.
I wonder whether she is rude or just challenging - ime sometimes teachers lable children as rude if they are intimidated by them...
I think the only possible thing to do in this situation is to speak to her an lay it on the line, i.e. these are the rules, it's important to demonstrate respect to others if you want to be respected yourself.
I would also try and work in partnership with the school - no point them moaning to you about it, more helpful for you to understand how they are going to deal with it effectively.
sorry to have to say this, too, but maybe if they can't handle her properly you might need to look at a school more able to cope with her. after all, stroppy celever children are not the worst problem to have tbh, and if she gets bored and feels undervalued then that will be a problem for everyone.
sorry, for someone with not much to say I have said a lot
good luck

sorry I have crossed posts with everyone while writing my essay...

Hmmm, sounds a little like my first born, who is extremely independent and very very restless in mind and body and can often be very bossy and dominating to her sister. I love her so and I also find her hard work! Don't have a lot of advice for you, but I find that what works best for her is totally consistent and strong boundries and reminding her of them constantly. E.g. 'That behaviour is not okay, this is your first warning, you have until the count of 3 to stop. If you don't stop, you will need to sit on the time out step until you are ready to join us' etc.
The other thing that I just noticed today is that after we went swimming her energy was much calmer. I think it was something to do with her having a chance to do something really active and exciting and get that crazy energy out there in a positive way. I find that she does best when she is really engaged with something. And of course, all the sensible things which I am sure you already do like making sure she gets enough sleep and eating a regular decent diet, etc.
Probably things you already do, but I didn't want your post to be ignored.
Welcome to mumsnet, by the way.

Oh dear, didn't mean to repeat - glad you aren't being ignored!

How is your dd in general with things like social skills, communication that kind of thing?
Does her hyperactiveness impact on family life or does she just have little hyper moments?

My god - I can't believe I have so many replies already. Thank you so much, this is a great resource. She did have piano lessons for around eight months. The teacher thought she was very musical, she was picking it up quickly, but the whole 'piano practice' issue became unbearable. She would only practice about twice a week, under duress, and would invariably burst into tears if I tried to help. She cannot bear me to help her - seems to view all 'help' as criticism, yet she's such a perfectionist and gets angry if she can't get something right. Anyway, I decided to stop the lessons because it was supposed to be something enjoyable, not another opportunity for defiance!

I think the exercise is a great idea. She has swimming lessons once a week, but that's all. This is something I should try.

Oh yes, parents' evening was actually during the week, so when I said I had 'just' returned, I was a little misleading! I suppose I didn't expect anyone to be reading this on a Sunday night.

Examples of her rudeness? It was her birthday recently, and she took in the obligatory bag of sweets to hand round to the class at hometime. Apparently she threw the bag at the teacher's feet and walked away. Also, I collected her from a friend's party and the parents told me she had been rude, shouting at the woman organising the party for more paints etc (it was a pottery painting party). I was absolutely mortified. I've always empahsised politeness, and my two younger kids are fine in this respect (even the two-year-old). Oh dear.

I feel guilty. She can also be lovely, but sometimes it's a struggle to remember when.

Does she find it easy to make friends?

right (sorry to focus on this one thing...) the piano is a bad choice for someone like your dd ime. does she want to learn an instrument?
what about a clarinet? but the best choice is what she wants...
this is a good book for choosing the right instrument
this may be counterintuitive but imo you need to give your dd a really really light touch, treat her with respect and try and give her as much choice aspossible over her life as you can.
she sounds bored and understimulated at school.
Imo if you come down heavy, that will be a disaster. going head to head with headstrong, clever children = nightmare .

Yes, she has lots of friends and the teacher described her as dominant in her peer group. I asked if she meant 'bossy' and she said no, she just seems to be effortlessly in charge - what she says, goes. She has one particular best friend, who is also very clever, and I think they wind each other up. But this friend is quite polite when she comes to tea, so I'm not suggesting my dd (did I do it right?) is learning this behaviour from her peers.

Thanks cat64 and jennifersofia. Perhaps the firstborn issue is relevant? I know dd1 needs extra stimulation, ideally one-to-one, but I simply can't give it, especially as my husband works weekends. The cub pack sounds great. Perhaps I should try Brownies.

harpsichordcarrion - very interesting. I will check out that book. Why is piano a bad choice? I'm intrigued...

I think you're so right about the light touch, yet everyone (parents/in-laws included) expects you to come down heavily on children like this, and you're seen as soft and contributing to the problem if you don't.

yes, I speak as a rude clever child myself not so many years ago . I now have a rude clever girl of my own but only 3.5...
well imo learning the piano is responsible for putting off almost every potentially musical person from learning to play an instrument... it's really very difficult to learn, and progress is very slow, and for an impatient, energetic child the act of sitting down quietly for practice is just torture,
then there is a huge stand off about practicsing and the whole thing turns into a dreadful chore.

How about something like drama or singing? It has worked wonder with my own dd.

My own dd,has some of the difficulties you have with your dd. She is very bright too and needs lots of stimulation.

What is it she says that is rude to adults? May be she just needs to be told what is acceptable and what isn't? Does she meet any of your friend i.e. non school adults and how is she with those?

My daughters' junior schools (private) had sport every day and often sports after school and my very active one (who never sat still, just like you describe your daughter) definitely benefited from the physical activity.

Clever children who aren't cahllenged at school often misbehave. It's a classic symptom. May he she needs to be moved up a year or be set harder work.

She sounds like some perfectionist children I've come across. I haven't had to deal with one but my daughters have had friends like that. One got anorexia actually as she got older so I would watch out for any over perfectionism as she gets older. The perfectionist I'm thinking of always had perfect behaviour with teachers too that was part of her being perfect.

Jools, she sounds a lot like my ds(7). He questions everything, including authority (as I did when I was a child), needs stimulation++, talks about life not being worth living, craves one-to-one adult attention, likes to be in charge in his peer group and we have endless battles re homework, piano practice etc. He also is bright & hates getting things wrong, giving up very easily when he can't do something with a minimum of effort. I agree she needs firm boundaries and intellectually stimulating activities. Are there any particular clubs related to her special interests? eg my ds goes to an allotment club, sings in a church choir of a high standard (although obviously he's not of a very high standard yet himself) and loves cooking. He also enjoys beavers, which in our area takes girls as well (mush to his disgust!), & if that's true where you live, your dd might prefer cubs to brownies as the activities are more fun & challenging. Good luck!

She sounds like an older version of my dd so thanks for the heads up that it won't get easier

She is very independent, often flies off the handle, definitley has to be right and gives up easily if she thinks she cannot do something, but will persevere for ever if she is really interested in something (eg loves reading about animals)

She is starting Beavers next Jan - I think she will love that better than Rainbows as she is a real tomboy, and already likes the idea having looked on the website at the badges etc.

She has just started piano lessons but i will look into other instruments - at present she is quite happy but I would like my ds to learn and he is very impatient ... However i saw some fab digital painos which can play the melody with you which might help?

I think the boredom comments could be spot on - my dd's behaviour is good in the first term of teh year as she is finding her feet and is stretched, but by the summer term she is dreadful as they wind down / revise.

I am clamping down hard on behaviour (she is 5) but I tend to agree that the older they are the more they need to feel in control, even at 5 my dd needs to have some control over her life (control freak like her mother ). I think the exercise idea is good, even if it just getting her out on a bike in the summer evenings, or maybe a modern dance class. And others have said, definitley talk to the teachers in more detail about the issues and how the situations arise then you can agree an action plan.

I am interested that she is the oldest - is there a small age gap? My dd is less than 2 yrs older than ds and i think sometimes she resents him being around (subconsciously) and would fare betetr as an only child, much as she loves him and likes company! Also being a summer child (Gemini) she has a lot of dominant traits that seem to come out.

Sorry not much help, hope you get something sorted

thast is bad behavioru imo clcver or not.
i rekcon you need to be a lot stricter with her for as tart off and also excercise/ monitor sleep
min go to the park every day after school for an hour and when it rains i can really tellt hey havent been out = they dirve me nuts

reading OP...dunno if this is just rudeness etc tbh. Only you can see how bad it is but am wondering if might either be depressed or have (
(mild) ADHD? Is that possible?

mental health probs are massively undiagnosed in kids imo and adhd ditti in girls.

or alternatively-is she getting at least an hour a day letting off steam? is she any better after?

Maybe she needs a lot of unstructured time?

but there is something not right. she is behaving to get negative attention. thats not indicative of a good self image, imo.
welcome to MN btw.

interesting book i read-gifted children growing up-kids identified as gifted tend to be those with behavioral problems consistent with adhd. kids who score equally well on iq tests (yes, I know, ) yet w/o behavioral problems are not identified. this was pre SATS tho.