What next?

[teeththief]

DS, y5, is brilliant at maths. Levelled at a L6 at the end of y4 but we were told that he is so capable and he could easily cope with GSCE maths if taught to that level. I don't 'do' maths, DH is quite good but doesn't know how they teach it. So, his teacher has said they really don't know what to do with him next year and asked what we want to happen. He's already completed the KS2 cirriculum after having lessons with the top y6's for the last 2 years.

What can we expect from them? Does anyone have experience of this?

At the end of Y6, he will do a level 3-5 paper as part of the SATS (or at elast he would have - I am not sure what changes are happening next year).

However, there is a level 5-7 paper he could prepare for.
Then there is a level 6-8 paper.
Typically this would take the most able to the end of year 9, before starting GCSE prep in year 10 and taking the exams in year 11.

Attaining a level 8 considered to be the equivalent of a B at GCSE (I think that's right!)

So that's what primary school could do, if the teachers know enough maths to teach that far (I am not kidding!).

However, although this may solve primary school's problem, it won't solve anything for your DS assuming you want him to steadily learn maths throughout his school career and progress to university with children his age, without having done no maths for a couple of years because he took his A level early.

The school should be able to ask the LEA for support, although a lot of the resources have been cut in the last couple of years. There may also be g&t enrichment days for maths locally. And it's worth checking with your local unis to see if they do any outreach stuff.

For the reasons that var said, it's best to look at broadening and enriching as well as moving forward. I'm a words not maths person, so can't help beyond that, but Potential Plus may be able to help with resources and other organisations.

Also - I have no idea where you are - I recently came across an organisation called Excellence East, which is for gifted children in the east of the country, so they may help.

The levels as they are will finish this year. DS wont be levelled as he is y5. I think this is where the trouble lies. The school has no replacement for levels so they can say DS is doing x,y and z so they are fulfilling their duties. There are no enrichment days locally (typically they were axed when DS was in y2). The outreach from uni students sounds good.

The school always come up with bright ideas and follow them through for a month or two but it always seems to fizzle out

They could still teach him what you need to know to do those papers though?

If not, then he is in for a lot of repetition (worst case scenario) or "sideways" extension which isn't always very interesting/challenging/rewarding either.

Your situation is somewhat different from mine, as your ds's school does seem to be recognising his ability in maths. However, I thought if I briefly go over what happened with dd, it may give you an insight into possible options.

Every year since year 1 I would have conversations with teachers where I said that dd was advanced at maths and they said that though in the top set she was not that far ahead and in some cases middle to bottom of the set.

By year 4 dd realised she was never going to learn anything new in maths at school and so in Y5 we decided to home educate until the end of primary.

We did not want to spend the whole of secondary arguing with teachers over what level she was and so she sat her GCSE at the end of year 6 and got A*.

Her new school is absolutely brilliant. She will sit A level maths early, but they also get her to do sideways education: UKMT and the like.

After A level we will look at "Futurelearn " and other MOOCS so that she keeps on progressing in maths until the end of secondary.

I would say it is important to be asking questions of prospective secondary schools and try and sound out their attitudes and ideas for your ds's education in order to find one that will suit you son.

If your ds likes doing UKMT type questions, ask the present school if he can sit the JMC next November. (It would mean them finding a secondary in the area that sits it). Have a look on their website anyway, as it has a lot of puzzle type questions for maths.

Khan Academy and nrich could also be worth a look at.

justrichmal how old is your DD now?

Thanks for the replies. I have a few things to suggest to the maths leader at school next week

Dd is year 7.

One of the things I did consider was how practical it was for the school to teach dd differently from the 29 other children in her class. Basically it would involve giving her a 1 to 1 lesson while simultaneously teaching all the rest. Not only would this be next to impossible, but very unfair on the other students. Online learning such as Khan Academy or if, as you say, your DH is good at maths, could be a solution, so that much of the learning is done at home and the teacher then directs what they are to learn and monitors it in class.

From experience I would really question suggestions such as enrichment or depth or sideways learning. IME this meant dd sitting quietly while the teacher taught the whole class things she had learnt years ago then having a more difficult worksheet put in front of her to get on with without any teaching.

Good luck with the meeting. I think one of the key things is to keep communicating with the school.

I forgot to say, you could always get a KS3 revision guide to find out what they will be learning. The one thing you really need to teach 1 to 1 is patience. It is easy to get anxious that you are not explaining things right which a child immediately interprets as you getting annoyed with them for not understanding. It just takes lots of phrases along the lines of: That's OK. you'll understand it better next time we do it.

From experience I would really question suggestions such as enrichment or depth or sideways learning. IME this meant dd sitting quietly while the teacher taught the whole class things she had learnt years ago then having a more difficult worksheet put in front of her to get on with without any teaching.

This is SO true.

I tried hard to find a solution when Ds2 was in year 4. The teacher had openly stated that she wouldn't be able to teach him maths that year, so there was no doubt that there was a problem to solve.

Amongst other things, i tried the let me teach him at home and send work to do in class approach. It was happily accepted but it was made clear that I could do what I liked at home, but DS2 would have to just do the same worksheets as the others in class. If he finished early (and he always did as he challenged himself to do them in 10% of the allotted time), then he could just read a book from the library for the rest of the lesson.

IME, schools are very reluctant to abdicate control even when they have abdicated responsibility.

Yr4 was the year that DS2 lost his enjoyment in doing maths.

var, that's appalling. Did your DS recover from that - and how is it going now?

Var, in your experience, is secondary better? I am very happy with dd's maths at school now, but I wonder if we have just been lucky or is secondary in general is more geared up to children who are ahead in maths? (I know from reading other threads other children have had a far better experience in primary)

Ds2 is still in year 6, which i would say is infinitely better, more differentiated than any other year since year 1. He does maths but without the enthusiasm he used to display. The biggest issue for us, as parents, is addressing his attitude which is that he doesn't need to try (and who cares if he makes silly mistakes... everyone knows that he can do it anyway etc., etc.).

He does come to life though when I show him something new so i think the boy I used to have is only sleeping!

DS1 is at secondary and, yes, it is better. At least i think its better.. the jury is out at the moment because DS seems to think his maths teacher will ask him to do a paper again that he already got top marks in because most of the rest of the class are still working at that level. I hope he's mistaken but I am waiting for the teacher to let me know.

Var, glad things have got better for you too.

I can't help thinking we should not have this struggle. It seems that if a child is good at sport or playing an instrument it is recognised and encouraged. Would it were so for maths.

The thing that annoys me most is that it's worse than a postcode lottery, there really is such a huge variation between individual schools and how they deal with really able/gifted kids as to be absurd. And worse than that - we had the same experience as you to a lesser degree - if one teacher decides they don't 'believe in' teaching ahead, then a child can have a truly terrible year.

And I think it's worst of all for maths, because if a child understands an area, that's it, there's no benefit to going over it again. Whereas in literacy, it's possible to get a small something out of being taught easy texts.

Which was supposed to be why parents were beign offered "choice" - so that you can find a school that suits your child's needs.

Imagine going to look around a prospective school with your young child and saying "DS is showing signs of being very intelligent. How many of your teachers believe in teaching ahead?"!!!

Thanks again for the replies. We have our meeting with the maths coordinator tomorrow and have made a few notes from what you have all said. DS told me today that him and the high ability y6's (two children) have been taken out twice a week since Xmas. Once a week to do a L6 test and once a week to go through the test together and work out the answers they arent sure of together. Only DS said his test has gone missing each time!

I think the main thing to avoid is excessive repetition. Teachers seem to like this because people do need to practice what they have learned to make it stick. So, it sounds viable and it means that they can batch up the class a little: other children can be doing it for the first time whilst you DS is practising his skills. The point is that children who have a high ability at something need less practice, not more.

If you don't want to accelerate him through to a GCSE though, then you could look at applied maths. What's been done until now is arithmetic and basic pure maths. Applied maths is subjects like computing, statistics, some physics (e.g. mechanics), accountancy and economics. Maybe there is some low level stuff from there that he could learn? It would all help later when he does A levels and goes to university.

var - there's a great piece of research somewhere which demonstrated that when gifted students were taught science, they learned less the more the teaching was repeated!

Good luck with the meeting.

Applied maths is subjects like computing, statistics, some physics (e.g. mechanics), accountancy and economics.

Um, no, applied maths is not economics, accountancy, statistics or computing although there would be nothing wrong with doing these instead of maths. Applied maths usually refers to applications of maths to physical sciences, biosciences and engineering, e.g. mathematical modelling of scientific and engineering problems.

Note that basic probability and statistics are contained in KS2/KS3 curricula. Applied maths is not because the concepts are typically way beyond children of that age. I also wouldn't call primary school maths basic "pure" maths: in my opinion there is very little pure maths even in A level curricula.

ok.. when i did pure maths at university, applied maths was all the stuff you do with maths viz some physics, some economics, some stats and some programming.

e.g. economics makes much of rate of change which is actually differentiation i.e. calculus.

Pure maths becomes very philosphical eventually, but not until long after A level.

Very interesting reading. DS is Y1 and is being given his own work at the moment. I think his teacher is being wonderful to sort this out for him, but I do wonder what the long term implications will be, and this thread is not filling me with confidence.

I'd never really considered doing GCSEs early, as it's always seemed a bit pointless to me, but JustRich's point about being evidence is a good one. Still he's only 6, it could all change for us.

Good thinking about related subjects that use maths. Physics degrees use an incredible amount of maths, though I think physicists would object to being called applied mathematicians!

Dd taking GCSE early was not my first choice, but after years of refusing to give her a test at her level and saying it was teacher assessment only, I did not know what else to do.

Imagine going to look around a prospective school with your young child and saying "DS is showing signs of being very intelligent. How many of your teachers believe in teaching ahead?"!!!

I must admit, the phrase "How will you teach a child who already has GCSE?" did trip easier from the tongue.

As you can probably tell, the lack of provision (or at best very patchy provision) for those who are ahead at maths is something I feel quite strongly about, having experienced the struggle to get differentiation first hand.

Once dd got into secondary she has had great support from her school, they havent needed gcse as evidence and actually we've all agreed that there is no advantage in her sitting her gcse early - we just ignore its existence! - she does self teach using ukmt books and also the AoPS books while sat in the classroom, but she is very self motivated, once a week her teacher has a lunchtime session with her and now ukmt are giving her an external mentor.

I think for many able mathematicians ukmt are a great way into learning to think more deeply and more like a mathematician. You learn how to do proper proofs and to lay down your arguments. I much prefer this to just ploughing on with the curriculum.

Richmal - I agree, but the lack of provision for children who are that far ahead in any subject is what riles me. There isn't even a policy.

They have a great organisation in the US - Davidsons - which advocates and offers support for children and parents in this kind of situation, and I keep thinking that one day I am going to try and set up the parallel organisation here. Because right now the situation is utterly inequitable. If you don't have the money for fees, or happen to live near a grammar or a super-selective, then you don't have a chance.