DS very bright - what should I do for secondary?

[kerloch]

Can I pick your brains? DS is v G&T and we moved him to an independent school because our local primary just couldn't offer him enough anymore. This is working really well but now we have to look at senior schools.

All his friends from previous school are going to the local comp which is considered v good but is obviously not selective. Further afield we have grammars but they involve big journeys and he would know no one. Most of his current classmates are scattering amongst other independent schools none of which are on our doorsteps either (and obviously there are the finances to consider).

Speaking to parents and teachers - some are recommending we go for a scholarship at at an independent, others say do the 11 plus and travel and the majority of parents (from former school) are saying how fab the comp is. But I don't think most realise just how bright he is. I really don't want to see him start slipping down as no streaming at comp until Year 9.

Has anyone got advice or experience of this?

Having similar dilemma to you, so watching with interest.....

Go and visit all possibilities, then take your ds personality into consideration.

I was fixed on either private ( didn't like the school ad much as I thought I would, then thought of paying 18k a year for something I wasn't sure I liked) or fairly local super selective. Ds obtained scores for selective but in the end we sent him to local very good comp, mostly because the atmosphere felt right and ds thought he would be happy there.

Although its early days ( just y7) I have not regretted it. He is v bright, was solving GCSE level maths problems in y 5 and attempting A level in Y 6. CAT scores over 130 and maximum possible score for NVR. He is motivated, gets plenty of challenge and extension and at the same time is in a normal mixed environment. That's not to say we haven't had a few wobbles e.g. Minor teasing for being too keen and ribbing when someone else scores better in something, but its proving a really positive experience. There are plenty of v bright kids in the school too.

What's really important is the right 'fit' for your dc in terms of ethos, pastoral care etc. it's pretty hard to get more than 10-12 A* at GCSE however bright your dc is, so other things are important. If ds had been h lazy child I might have made a different decision. Similarly if he
was shy and retiring. So go and have a good look round.

You have got to visit all the possible schools. Consider your child and how they would cope with each environment. I have faced this choice recently, my positions were:

1. Staying at current mildly selective private - strengths languages
2. Moving to very selective private - strengths maths and science
3. Taking 11+ for super selective Grammer
4. Local senior (ex-Grammer, only co-ed option)

Option 1 and 4 are in local town, Option 2 is bus journey dropped at school, Option 3 is bus or train and then walk of 15 mins at other end.
Option 3 discounted due to multiple parts to travel. Option 1 discounted as DC is very G&T in Maths and Science.
In the end I choose option 2, I personally believe in single sex education and when I visited the school every single DC I meet was just like mine and I could see they would fit straight in and be very happy.

Thanks so much for your thoughts.

I have visited v v selective mixed grammar with him and I knew he would love it - the kids were all like him and it was very aspirational and diverse. Haven't visited the next grammar down yet.

I haven't visited the comp. But if I am honest I worry about teasing there because he is so bright and so intellectual. He has never suffered bullying or teasing but then he has only mixed with village kids who have known him since toddlerhood and now kids at independent school. Comp may be outstanding but is also very big and takes a real mix of children. I would love to go independent but there is the money and also there is equal travel to the grammars (and grammars are free) .

Can I also ask a moral question? I have two and the youngest is smart but not G&T. Would never get into the main grammar (which creams off the top 11 plus entrants) and splitting them worries me too.

Go for the v. selective grammar, Kerloch, if he is so bright ...You've said he would love it and that plus the fact that you think it's aspirational enough should be the decisive factor ...and if you want to go indie at sixth form he can always do that (but if he loves the grammar still he may not want to change) ...saving the money for uni. is a big plus. I'd be really concerned about the no streaming until year 9 at the comp. since it will be non-selective /mixed ability. No streaming at a v. selective grammar til year 9 might be more acceptable because they should all be highly able.

You need to find the best school for each child, which may not be the same school for your two DSs.

btw, we were also fixed on DS going from prep to selective indie route, and hadn't really planned on state grammar at all (one thing was it was so selective anyway so no big bet on DS getting in and didn't want to tutor him for months, we did some DIY practice on and off for about 4 months with a vague notion to give it a try because he was v. academic anyway) but after he'd visited it and then got in, we turned down the indies because he'd decided for himself the grammar suited him best. There was one indie I personally would have preferred for him (in top 5 -10 in the country by results and Oxbridge) because it was as strong in the humanities as the sciences (whereas the grammar is v. much skewed towards the sciences/maths) but the daily commute would have been too far and in the end we decided it wasn't worth the expense and hassle of moving to a new area. At the end of the day, you'll never know which was the better decision, as no-one really knows a school til they get there (or who their cohorts are going to be) but if they thrive where they end up, then it's the right decision. If they don't then you can always look to move as last resort...which is somewhat easier from grammar to private or from grammar to comp then the other way round.

Thanks Att100 you are right that he could move in sixth form. Hadn't thought of this.

Am worried how I would manage though with two at different schools.

Also, has anyone got experience of leaving a child until Year 8 at an independent and then moving?

Happy New Year by the way

I would always go for the option 2 above and that is what we did - a very selective top 20 private, always.

A top 20 private would be very expensive though, unless he could get a high bursary.
I know some bright children who went to the local (good) comp, unlike most of their middle class friends. They were top of the class all the way through and got all the special gifted and talented treatment - so the advantages of being a big fish in a small pool. The oldest got a place to read medicine at Oxford and younger one is heading in that direction too. If a child is very bright and the school is any good at all they should end up with top grades at GCSE, so other factors are important too - eg extra-curricular, learning to mix with different types of children, not just rich kids, etc.
A grammar is more likely to push the children academically, which may or may not be a good thing for the individual child. Some grammars are not very interested in the non-academic stuff (likewise some comps of course).

The grammar we chose Mary1972 is in the top 20 btw of FT academic league tables by GCSE results (which includes state and privates) .......I think our reasons for a private might have been the extra curriculars eg music, drama and sports but tbh, we came to the conclusion that DS was overloaded with extra curriculars as it is...the grammar also has orchestra, music lessons, drama, DOE and CCF and lots of other clubs (though probably not at the same level as top 20 indies) but in fact we thought at secondary he probably needed to drop some extras to focus more on the academic rather than add more clubs.

I think it also depends on the child and obviously if the ethos of the school suits that particular child...to us, we didn't feel the secondary private that we would have had to move for and that was several places higher in the league table would make enough of a difference to our DS to be worth the cost of moving (and the local commutable indies were in fact lower down the academic league table) but for a super-sporty child or a child that particularly wanted boarding or lots and lots of drama or rugby etc. for example private may be better and again we will re-assess at sixth form stage.

Our priority was top academics for GCSE at least, a school where DS would be pushed by highly academic cohort and a decent number of extra - curriculars important but a second priority, and we were happy if they were available even if not at the level of the privates.

obviously I should have added the grammar doesn't have all the superb on site facilities of some of the best privates ....and that is also what you pay for..

Indeed and I could afford to pay (x5) so am lucky. I suspect the children could have got into good grammars too as 1 or 2 children from their prep schools went off to schools like Henrietta B etc every year. I suppose as I was never educated in the state system I am just more used to private schools.

Where I live we have grammars and secondary moderns. It is quite normal for one child to go to a grammar and siblings to go to a secondary modern. Having said that, the secondary modern where I live was going through a not so good period, so both ours went to independent as DD1 was top scoring in the 11+ and DD2 would have been destined for the local sec modern with far inferior facilities, teaching, ex curricular, school trips etc. (now greatly improved by the way). We did not want them to have vastly different experiences of senior school.

Grammar schools round here can fill up so the only ones with spaces at 13 are the 2nd tier ones. That may not be every year either. I do think you have to choose a school to suit the child. If your children are all different, why do they need to be educated together? Many people around here have to accept that position.

Out of curiosity, what is too bright for an ordinary secondary to cope with (assuming that replies aren't from people who prefer HE for all children, anyway)?

I suppose it would be where in a class of 30+ year 7 students there is not the resources to differentiate for the one or two who are level 7 or 8.

Just a comment. I have a child at a super selective grammar and also have a child at an outstanding comp. At the latter there ARE kids who are exceptional, they are supported and not teased. Don't assume that nobody of high intelligence goes to a comp.

Agree reincarnated pig. At my ds school, they are perfectly able to differentiate for the v bright kids, my ds (somewhere between level 7 and 8 maths) has a fantastic teacher who sets all sorts of problem solving and extension work. In his maths set, he tells me there are about 4 or 5 boys at Level 7, and it's very competative! And others who excell in other subjects. Any teasing is very minor.

Given that the local superselective takes only 40 on exam scores out of the 1000 that sit, the other very bright kids must go somewhere. I know from the raw scores that getting a score to achieve a place or not can come down to one wrong answer on the day.

My ds's comp is very aspirational and from Day 1 boys are expected to work hard. Funnily enough one of the local indies is often a back up choice for boys that don't get this state option!

Thanks for all your posts.

I obviously know bright kids will go to the comp - I just wonder how bright and how they fare. A few parents I know talk about their kids being very bright and top of the class. I have spoken to the kids too and they said they were teased. I know privately that my DS is way brighter than these children - he was identified as G&T at a very young age. He's not a genius but he is operating two to three years (sometimes higher) above his year group and teachers are always approaching me and saying how amazed they were with him today. At the independent school they are allowing him to do this and they have some seriously bright kids there (nearly all moved from state interestingly).

The grammar we have in mind takes top 50 from a few thousand applicants. Current school thinks he'll make it. Though we are not tutoring and so sometimes I'm not so sure. Then there are several other grammars but they are all over a county border and long travel times. But they also have 30+ classes.

Some v good independents too but none local. All involve an hours travel. In truth the only one that doesn't involve travel is the comp/academy with 30+ to a class and several thousand, mixed ability kids. I guess he probably would achieve all the A*s at GCSE but I kind of want to stretch him, allow him to explore other subjects and extra curricula things. It's not just about academic achievement.

perspective how old is your DS?

He is 11. He was identified as exceptional at age 6 and has an IQ of 160. Mathematically he was operating at about 4 to 5 years ahead of his peers.

Our choice of school was very difficult, not least because many friend thought we were barmy to not put the selective first. But it would have been a travel nightmare and ds would not have had the opportunity for any extra curricular activities. He is in many clubs at school, had been made a prefect and voted Form Captain. He has a great mix of local friends and is well supported at school. As I said in an earlier post, we are very happy with the school and so is ds.

DCs got to a state comp, average results but brilliant pastoral care

DS friend 18 is does brilliantly academically, very hard worker, and down for all A* at A level has always struggled and been teased. But he used to be arrogant and i suspect bought a lot of problems on himself. I suspect arrogance is born out of insecurity and needing to prove himself.
DS also one of the high fliers at the school. Unfortunately due to dyslexia wont get all the A*s he should but still top of in school in some subject, but teachers rave about his deep thinking and questioning which they say are bordering on genius only ever had a problem from his friend who out performs him. Thankfully they got over this and are good friends now.

Living in an area where there are no grammars, and where the average educational attainment of the population is very high (university city), we found that our local comprehensives are all very academically minded, and there is little or no teasing of academic children.

My DS observed that the book groups and writing clubs to which he belongs are regarded as nerdy by some people in the school, but he is not the slightest bit bothered.

Good teachers and there are lots of good teachers in comprehensive schools will not have any problems differentiating work for higher ability students.

Obviously, it depends on the area in which you live, but I'd say don't make facile assumptions about the quality of education provided by comprehensives/grammars/independents, and focus on finding the school that is going to be right for your child on every level.

Ask him what he would like to do. Listen very carefully to what he says when you are ALL making a final decision .

yr7 DD is extremely happy at a state "high school" where she is generally around 7c in math/English. She is set for those subjects, though.

I think you need to ask the local comp how they manage mixed ability with a child who is on the extreme already (low or high).

I feel very strongly that emotional happiness trumps any other factor in education.

Based on my own experience I would advise going for the local school. Dd 1 travels over an hour to journey out of the area to her super selective - I thought she would be teased at the comp. I really regret it - dd2 goes to the comp and she would have been fine.

Unless the school is poor a clever child will do well at most schools.

Dd2 is in the top set at the comp and the majority of the class were level 7 in maths at the end of the first term. By year 8 nearly all the class were level 8 in both maths and English. They are streamed though from the start. I have never heard of anyone being teased for being clever.

Of course it depends on the comp. But I would have a good look at it before rejecting it out of hand.