Scores high on British Ability Scales but 'underperforming'

[incywincyspideragain]

Anyone been in this postion? ds1 was tested by ed psych and comes out at 98th%ile - he's year 1, just 6, difficultly is I see no evidence of this in his school work teacher says he is difficult to motivate, I'm concerned if he doesn't start working to his potential he'll switch off - School have highlighted him as 'at risk', what support should I ask for apart from his IEP?

Iep should cover it nicely. What targets does he have, are they 'smart', how are they going to help him meet them?

Have two kids who are 2e, and so require some particular supports to enable them to meet potential, but a decent iep (or two if there are specific sn as well) should cover it.

Lots of reasons for academics not meeting theoretical potential though, from confidence issues, to boredom, to just really not being that interested and rather enjoying playing with friends. And at six it can be tricky to figure out what's what. It should all shake out in time, particularly if supported and actively learning in other areas ie home.

thanks madwoman - we have IEP review on tues - I'm not sure they know what to suggest, more waiting and seeing I think, IEP's in the past have been very vague as behaviour related and difficult to measure plus I have the impression they want 100% out of him in attainment on IEP before the targets move on, I know he has low self esteem but I don't have any suggestions really on how to build that up - how did you identify that your children were 2e? do you have a clear dx to help?

We do now. Dd2 has cp, which has obv always been noticeable, but ds1 was different kettle of fish and only dx just before he was 10.

I would concentrate on the struggle to motivate if I was you. They essentially let Ds cruise for five years because they knew he was theoretically capable of the work, even if he wasn't coming up with the goods. (his y2 teacher nearly killed him during y2 sats, and mostly they resorted to the HT standing behind him if it was essential he produced at any given moment, to try and keep him on task). But I would fish for potential reasons for lack of motivation. Does he not want to do it? Is he bored? What does motivate him (I loathe this question and would be a rich woman if I had a pound for every teacher that asked me that, but might be worth you asking them?) is he just highly distractible? Is he easily led/ impulsive? (to a greater degree than his peers, at 6 really I'm not sure if you could tell!)

Essentially I would be looking for ADHD type behaviours, but also with a mind that gifted kids can appear similarly - there is an interesting book misdiagnosis and dual diagnosis of gifted kids - it's worth a read to give a few ideas, rather than point in you any specific direction.

I think it's also worth noting that until the issues cannot be put down to maturity (so probably by about 7 or 8) it might all be a bit of a guessing game. Are they providing stimulating and challenging work? Lots of gifted kids make mistakes with easy stuff because they aren't concentrating, and also because they have so much going on in their heads at he same time... When Ds had his assessment, the psych said he wrote everything for the maths papers on one sheet of paper, just writing in every tiny space he could find. She said it was a freakishly bizarre picture of what the inside of his head looked like - gifted and ADHD, scary place!

I think at 6 I would still be heaping lavish praise on the teachers and senco and begging them for help, and asking for their advice. Not because I thought they were particularly able or knowledgeable, but just because it makes them more likely to try and find some solutions that work. So lots of ' i really value your input' and 'what would you suggest?' if you flatter them enough to come up with some great ideas, they are pretty much duty bound to put them into place... ESP if you say 'oh, that's a great idea for the iep!'

I know it's a leeeetle bit dishonest, but needs must, and all that. Clever kids are often overlooked and not given support because they can do the stuff, they just don't.

Hi, My son was similar and turned out to have mild/moderate dyslexia. His school work should have been several years ahead rather than slightly below average or average. It resulted in him being really bored as he was on the bottom table and at the same time, looking for any distraction to avoid work because he found it difficult - a difficult situation to suss out. Even the EP didn't get to the bottom of it although she did recommend moving him up a table.

I agree with Mad Woman about staying on side with school. I found this difficult at Junior School as they were all very set in their attitudes. G&T and dyslexic was well outside their box. Secondary school has been totally different and they have been on the ball from day one.

Thanks,IEP meeting fairly inconclusive,teachers don't know how to motivate him but at least they were honest! apparently things work for a couple of sessions but them he loses interest so they have to think of something new... talked through acouple of ideas,one issue is he isn't fased but punishment sanctions,ie going to head or staying in a break time isn't the end of the world to him,I know I have to let them figure it out but hard to hear he is not performing
Off to look at ideas to improve his writing,didn't realise his writing wasn't up to peer group,apparently he's trying to write too fast to get ideas down and then gets frustrated and writing is messy,any ideas for that one??

If you do a Google on "gifted children motivation" you will get lots of information and discover that it is a common problem. My son's last school report (Yr 6) said that "when he is interested, he soaks up information like a sponge but if he's not interested then he becomes unengaged very very rapidly". He spent a lot of his time in the early years staring out of the window and acting eccentrically. For a while, there was a building site right next to the school window which kept him occupied. He would have loved lots of intellectual debates, museum type stuff and problem solving activities. Also try a Google on "gifted children handwriting"... another common issue. Secondary school have been great and my son has just got the go-ahead to use a laptop for his writing. Your school may not be on-board with this idea but you could try getting him to type as well as write. It might slow him down and it will also be a great skill for the future. There are free typing programmes out there like BBC Dancemat Typing. Hope this helps a bit.

TBH, I would rather (as a teacher) they wrote fast & got ideas down as long as they were forming their letters correctly. If he isn't most young children like using whiteboards & pens so he could us those to learn to form his letters correctly.

niceweather I think its important we try and get the handwriting up because its SATS next year and its an important skill to have, part of it is telling him how important it is to write so people can read it. I have googled 'gifted children motivation' (not sure why I didn't think to do that before ) I found lots of agreement that its a problem but not much advice I could pass onto school. At home we just have a simple rule of asking him what he would like to do after he's completed his homework or task and we make sure it happens (its usually very simply watch telly, play on computer or with a certain toy) we shared this with school but there are times when this isn't possible and he just has to learn to do work with out an obvious reward - to do it because it needs doing

redhelen not sure I understand your post, ds writes fast but by doing so things get messy, he gets frustrated with having to slow down to form the letters properly and then gives up or says he's forgotten what he's doing - he can't write fast and form letters correctly at the moment, his teacher wants him to slow down a little and concentrate on his joined up writing, sometimes he doesn't even start the work at all....

Reflecting on it this morning I'm not sure how helpful the IEP meeting was...

I totally agree that you need to concentrate on the handwriting and shouldn't let it slip but learning to type alongside this can be really liberating for children with writing difficulties... perhaps children a little older than your son. My son was behind in his writing in Yr 1 and has remained behind in his writing. He finds it really difficult and it causes a gigantic discrepancy between what he knows, his ideas, and what he can express through his writing.

He does need to form his letters correctly, so I was suggesting ways that make this a bit more fun for him. Once he CAN form his letters correctly then he will be able to get his ideas down & his writing should be legible. However, as a teacher I would rather have untidy work than none at all, or very little. BTW, it really is not unusual at 6 years old to struggle to write - there is a lot to think about!!!

www.nagcbritain.org.uk/new_parents_main.php?contentid=332&webid=251#.T8duNVJ7tpg

might help

Why does he have an IEP? What are the targets?

When kids are in Key Stage 1 the focus of learning is often basic literacy skills. How quickly kids do this doesn't have an awful lot to do with what is being measured on the British Abiilties Scales. Did the EP do any testing of literacy or phonological awareness? Did the EP highlight what the problem seems to be?

redhelen he can form his letters fine but it all goes to pot when doing story writing or more than words for spelling test - he can also spell well unless its in a story

neolara ds had had an IEP since reception, targets have remained at putting hand up and not calling out (he says he wants/needs to get answer out - I've just asked if he can have a notepad, wasn't relevant before) starting my work straight away when asked (looks out of window/swings on chair/finds other stuff to do/flattly refuses) and following instructions not back chat or dawling. Back story is chronic glue ear so hardly hearing in reception - it took us a long time to get us grommets (March last year) so he finished reception not reading or getting phonics. Now a free reader but not producing work that 'he is capable of' not motivated to do the work and just drifts - loves School though. EP just tested him and has suggested things to imporve his self esteem (reward system and sharing his work when he does it) but nothing to get him to do the actual work in the first place

toaster thanks - off for a read

Things that work for improving motivation are increasing feelings of competence but also feelings of control.

You can increase feelings of control by:

1. asking your ds to set his own goals e.g. If you want him to start writing immediately, the teacher could ask "How many sentences do you think you can write in the next 3 mins, 2 or 3?" As it's likely he wouldn't know how long 3 mins is, he would need a visual cue like an egg timer to do this.
2. Give him choice. e.g. If his IEP target is to start a task straight away, ask him to decide which lesson he wants to try really hard to do this in today, maths or literacy. Obviously eventually you want him to start straight away in all lessons but at the beginning it might be realistic to focus particularly on only one or two.
3. Have some kind of prompt sheet that explicitly tells him what to do if he is stuck e.g. Ask a teacher, ask a teaching assistant, look in a book, ask a friend etc.

You can increase feelings of competence by:

1. Making sure he is set work / targets that are not too hard. E.g. If he has got into the habit of calling out, it is probably unrealistic to expect him not to call out for the whole of carpet time. He needs targets that he stands a chance of hitting e.g. To put his hand up and wait to be asked before speaking during the first five mins of literacy carpet time. Once he has met this target 3 days in a row, make it a bit harder e.g. make it the first 5 mins of literacy and also numeracy.
2. Give him very specific ( as opposed to general) feedback about what he did well e.g. "When I asked you to start writing out your spellings, you got started straight away" instead of "Good spelling"
3. Be very specific about what he needs to do to improve. e.g. "It's really good that you put your hand up when you wanted to answer a question. But remember, you need to wait for the teacher to say its your turn to speak before you say anything"
4. Focus his attention on his successes not his failures.
5. Give him a very clear message that success is within his control and that it is linked to effort. Regularly explain that success is linked to effort and hard work and that it is normal to find things difficult.

Some other thoughts
How's his hearing at the moment? Are you sure he is actually following what is going on in the classroom? Hearing loss with glue ear is intermittent but 6 year olds are unlikely to say when they can't hear. He may appear to be following because he looks around at what others are doing but he may struggle when asked to do something specific because he hasn't followed the exact instructions. Can he repeat back instructions?

Have you tested his sight recently?
Are you confident he is being asked to do things that are matched to his current level of literacy skill. Most people don't like doing things they aren't good at. Is he just trying to avoid something he finds difficult? How's his spelling? He might be a free reader but if he missed out on phonics he might struggle to spell and therefore try to avoid writing tasks.

Is there a payoff for not getting on with the tasks or calling out e.g. status for mucking about from other kids.
Do you think your ds has an idea of what a good listener is e.g. sitting still, looking at teacher, not fidgetting etc
Does you ds know what he needs to do if he doesn't understand e.g. ask the teacher, ask a teaching assistant, look at the board, ask a friend etc

Thanks neolara its really good to see some of the things on your list that we're trying,I am struggling a bit with totally understanding what is happening at school ie are they being specific with feedback

He may have permenant high frequency hearing loss the consultant is monitoring this,ds has never said he can't hear,he doesn't realky know much different,I'm working on getting him to realise if he doesn't know what to do to ask for help. I liked your idea of a list of strategies for him to try if he was struggling. Ds has an older experienced teachr who places a lot of weight on listening,I'm working on her understanding the difference between listening and hearing,I can tell if ds has understood or processed the instruction but I know thats hard in class of 30
I had sight tested in reception and he has lazy eye so wears glasses,long sighted.

We alway talk about trying his best at school, he would say him self that he isn't trying most days. Ed psych has said there needs to be more focus on positive behaviour and work,ds has never seen head with a piece of good work only been sent there to work when he's not on task,I'm hoping they'll take this on board,he did come home with 2 super star story writer awards this week for first time ever.
Also I get impression his phonics are now good,he gets 100% in spelling tests and enjoys reading,I don't think his spelling is good in his story writing though,teacher thinks its because he's rushing and spelling totally phonetically not thinking about how the word is read ie sord for sword, I thought that was normal for this age?

I'm not sure an eggtimer is a good idea as most 6 year olds would have no idea what '3 minutes' feels like!
It's better to give a target number of lines for writing.

I have a child in my class on 98th percentile for comprehension who is also acting eccentrically. The psychologist is booked for July, but in the meantime, I'm watching this with interest.

One thing that's working to get her writing is a little desk at the front of the class without distractions (it's got little screens on the sides!), and telling her that she'll miss a part of art/ICT in the afternoon (which she loves). (Doesn't work with maths though!!)

She's in all the top groups, and we know she's internalising info, even if she isn't producing the written evidence!

flexybex I'm not sure the school have found what motivates him ie if you do x you can do y - sometimes he'll miss something like art or PE because he's kept back to do work
We did talk about him having his own table - although due to layout of room it would have to be facing a wall, I think it would work and encouraged them to try, teacher was uncomfortable with this as it would feel like exclusion and EP highlighted his self esteem... I hope they will try it, I suggested they give him the choice 'would it help if you sat on this table?'
Would be interested to see what your EP says in July.

incy - my little one makes the choice to go to her table - it's not a forced thing, and she definitely appreciates the fewer distractions. She only goes there when she's working independently - she has her own seat next to another child as well.
She has also had to finish work during part of an art or PE lesson, but generally the carrot is dangly enough for her to finish the required amount of work in a few minutes (or I settle for less). She doesn't really 'miss' anything as she is always given the chance to catch up.

I'll come back to the thread in July and let you know what the EP says. The paediatrician was less than useless so I'm not holding my breath.

It's a shame you HAVE to write and can't just get by on creative quirkiness!

Does he mind missing art or pe?

This approach was beyond crap for ds1. It was essentially a punishment for being distractible, and made him dig his heels in further, in no way motivating at all. It's also a really desperately crap way of dealing with a child who might have attention deficit type issues - often their concentration improves if they are given the chance to run around or do something else (job for the teacher taking something to office etc). It can also be useful for a child with fine motor or hyper mobility type issues with hands/wrists. The strain of using a pencil for that length of time is far better broken up by doing something else and then coming back to the written stuff.

Ds still doesn't form his letters correctly (he's ten now) but has the most beautiful handwriting. Total shocker. The ADHD meds have apparently made him easier to motivate at school, and he apparently gets on with his work now. I'm not entirely sure that I believe them, tbh.

flexy she is sounding similar to my ds, for a boy who apparently does very little at school he is learning a hell of a lot to stay on a par with his peers madwoman he doesn't get upset about missing art or pe (certainly not enough to make sure he does work in time the next time) but it does make him start the work when they all go to the next session.
I really dislike him being kept in at break times though, every child needs to have a run around and a break and come back fresh - I'd rather they sent the work home with him but they have to keep trying at the moment because eventually he will just have to start his work on time....
also not sure if I said before that he is hypermobile - could be the issue with writing?? I'm not sure if I understand what his hypermobility means, only he runs quite woodenly and therefore hates playtime football (but enjoys pe because the teachers make sure its fair) he is riding a bike though and swimming so he is improving in core strength, his fine motor skills have always been brilliant (blessing of a late walker ) he really enjoys lego and construction stuff, cutting things out too
flexy what did paed say?