Unschooling a G & T Child

[Again]

Just wondering if any of you have 'unschooled' your children. I'm not sure of my feelings about the actual term 'unschooling' by the way - I suppose I'm talking about child-led home-learning.

I have a 4 year old who has been going to montessori, but has now decided not to go. We are also thinking of keeping him out of school altogether for a couple of years.

He hasn't been assessed by the way.

Any advice? Books that may help me?

I would look at why your child has 'decided not to go' to school. Were there any indications that he was unhappy? If so did you try and work with the school to sort it out? Why would you now decide to keep him out of school - with all the social and educational stimulation that can offer - for the next couple of years? And then what- I would imagine that he might find it quite challenging to suddenly go back to school at age 6. Personally I find the whole idea of letting a child decide not to go to school rather odd - after all these are the kinds of decisions parents make; along with what vegetables they need to eat and what time they go to bed. They don't have the maturity or understanding to make informed decisions on these issues.

I do not like unschooling at all (I'm a teacher) and do not feel it gives any kind of balanced and deep education to a child, especially as they get older. 'Child led' learning only works if the child knows where they want to lead and most of them don't. It is an exceptional child who knows with certainty what they want to do with their life - and stick to it - even at age 14 and 15. Studies have shown many children come out of unschoooling with a shallow and narrow education, lacking self discipline and the ability to stick with things and see them through. Even if, in the teen years, they suddenly do develop that vision of where they want to go in life, years of weak education from 'free choice' often mean many do not have sufficient skills and knowledge to reach the necessary levels of attainment. Home schooling, following a clear curriculum and helping your child meet recognised levels of achievement is an entirely different thing from unschooling. Whilst you will find many advocates for unschooling - especially in America - you will not find many serious educational specialists amongst their ranks for good reason.

Why would you not send your child to school?

Kids go to school. They learn how to be contributory, conscious adults.

I just don't get the whole "kid-led" craze which seems to dominate eating, sleeping, socialising and now, even schooling.

I'd ask your question in the Home Ed section, as you are more likely to find the advice you are looking for there.

Have to agree it sounds very odd for a parent to allow their four year old to decide not to go to school/nursery. It would not have been an option for my children!

The very term "unschooling" makes my toes curl and I am a home edder. But of the sort that has an organised curriculum, set hours and times, and set subjects that cannot be avoided or not chosen, much as it would be in school.
Do NOT unschool your child, but by all means take on its education yourself, but really know what you are going to be doing first. I took my son out of school three years ago, and we have never looked back. It's not always been easy, but it has been very rewarding, and,as someone kindly pointed out, the mental exercise on my part has no doubt staved off dementia for a bit longer!

Hi there. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I would genuinely love to read the research adoptmama and am fairly openminded (at this point, but that may change).

I guess that I can see that when he does follow his passions, his learning goes through the roof and when he doesn't he is just not fulfilled.

I really cannot see how any of his educational needs will be met at school, but again I am going to speak to the schools and see what they can offer before making any decision.

As regards the social side, he is confident and plays very well when it is just that - playing. He does not learn academically in groups, but learns a lot from baking and playing with other children. I have a feeling that human beings are not meant to be in a group of 30 people their own age for 4 hours a day. This doesn't seem like a natural grouping and that we are forcing children into learning this 'skill' when really we would do a lot more for them by mixing with a wide variety of people.

And in answer to some of the other questions, what I mean by 'he decided not to go' is that some months ago he told me that he didn't like anything that he did there, whereas previously he loved 'his work' and that he point blank refused to go in the door. We feel that he is not at all stimulated there. He also says 'I just want to play' and I get that a four year old wants to play.

If you felt that your child would not benefit in any way from school, educationally or socially (and again I am still researching the options, so I am not saying that this is definitely the case), would you still send them there and if so, why? Surely it's to benefit them.

As regards home education, if children are learning without being forced, then why force? My current thinking is that I'll keep abreast of the curriculum, so that I know what areas may be of benefit, but that I will more or less trust his inquisitive mind. I'm not saying let him run free and don't help him find anything out - I'm saying that when he asks about climate change summits, I allow him to suggest a game where we pretend to be representatives from different countries and discuss weather (as happened the other day).

With all due respect Again you need to parent your child. You can't just walk away from anything he doesn't like or want to do. You are NOT doing him any favours with this approach.

Tough luck if he doesn't like school. Diddums. I don't like coming to work but I have bills to pay.

Your assertion that his educational needs will not be met at school is naive at best and totally uninformed at worst. He needs to be schooled - at home or in a classroom setting.

Arrgh.....

'As regards the social side, he is confident and plays very well when it is just that - playing. He does not learn academically in groups, but learns a lot from baking and playing with other children. '

What do you mean by 'learning academically in groups' as opposed to 'baking and playing with other children'?
Baking, for instance, is a practical way of learning 'academic' subjects (maths, science, literacy). Playing is learning how to communicate (literacy).
I think you need to visit a school to see what goes on because I think you have misconceptions.

In fact iMoniker I don't find your tone respectful. And he is 4 btw. I don't intend sending him up chimneys for a living any time soon. I find it very sad that your attitude to children is
'Tough luck if he doesn't like school. Diddums. I don't like coming to work but I have bills to pay.' Why you want 4 year olds to feel as miserable as you do for their entire childhood is beyond me. It really just makes no sense.

mumblesmum, if they baked at school everyday and played as much as they wanted then I would be very positive about it. I absolutely agree that they are the most valuable ways to learn. But what I'm saying is that that is why I took him out of pre-school - that's not what they were doing. If I find a lovely school then I'm not against it, but I think I should be entitled to explore all the options with friendly parents who want the best for their children, as I do.

That's probably because I don't respect your choices.

I'd prepare to bet that he doesn't like school because he picks up on your attitude about education. If, at age four, you allow him to make poor choices for himself you are going to be in a world of pain by the time he reaches 16.

Inevitably, yours will not be the popular viewpoint. If you choose to pursue this path, I guarantee you, that you will encounter a lot worse than my comments as he gets older.

Sorry if that offends you, but I really think you should consider the fact that being a parent is not always about letting a child have their own way.

I will leave this thread now. I do hope you will at least consider the other side of the educational "fence".

I'm quite surprised as my experience of montrossi schools is that they are more child led than a standard one!! Hate to think what you would make of a state school.
Your right though, his 4 and should very much be in the child led education and I'm pretty sure it is, because that's the new educational way of teaching this age group. I would be tempted to consider if he is struggling with the boundaries of school rules rather than not learning.
You suggest he is G&T, on what are you basing this on?

You'll find in a reception class they are rarely kept as a group of thirty. IME it tends to be more little groups moving around 'stations' of activities/learning. It is hard to overstate the social benefits of school (says that even though DS was bullied for a while).

Perhaps see if there is a Forest school near you?

Thanks for your help iseenodust. Unfortunately there's no forest school. I'll be going into the schools again and asking exactly what they do all day. He may love it.

Lisad he's been going for two years now. I think he is no longer interested in the material there. He told me that he's limited to reading one book a day there. I think that the fact that he wanted to read more means that he probably couldn't find anything else to do or anyone else interesting to talk to.

I'm going to a conference next week on giftedness where the key note speaker is dealing with emotional and social aspects of life as a gifted child. It's for parents and teachers and looks to be very interesting. I'll enjoy it anyway and get more info about how schools treat it.

I was also thinking of going to a local educational psychologist to see what they think of the local options. I'm a bit unsure about whether to assess at this stage.

It seems that many of you do favour a child-led approach, so I think that it's homeschooling that is the issue. As I say, I don't rule anything out. It's not just because of the gifted thing that I was looking at unschooling, but because it's an option. I am going to a talk on it soon. I thought it would be interesting though to see if anyone here with a gifted child had used that approach to homeschooling.

I read John Holt's 'How Children Learn' and it's fascinating, particularly one part where he talks about a one-roomed school where the children were allowed to follow their own line of questioning as far as they wanted. One example was that the children were putting away their coats for the summer and they had to be dry-cleaned rather than washed. They asked why. This led to them discovering that wool couldn't be washed because it shrinks, to them writing to a university to borrow a microscope so they could examine strands to find out why, then they decided to look at loads of other fibers. That got them interested in weaving, so they made some cloth by writing more letters asking people to borrow tools. They got wool from a local farmer and carded it and so on. Then they thought it would be interesting to see how long it took to produce so they started working out man-hours and a unit of work. That moved them on to asking about how long it would take to make a bigger object like a suit....it moved on to colonisation and industrialisation then. It was fascinating.

As regards my comment 'he has decided not to go to school', I think that people may misinterpret my turn of phrase. It's possibly a cultural thing. I have said school-time now, come on now and used various 'tactics', but I this time he really has come to the end. There simply is no point and it seems a shame to put him in an environment he doesn't want to be in.

POst on Home Ed. Mine were 'unschooled' and are now adults.

What makes you think he's gifted?

Thanks KalSkirata. I assume it went well! I think I needed this just to get things out of my head. I was upset by some of the comments, but fine now.

e.g. Last week he wanted to play cards with DH. They were all over the floor so DH suggested counting them to see if any were missing. He said there were 51, so DH said 'Oh I see the other one here' which was upside down. He asked DS what card he thought it was. 'King of Hearts'. 'How did you know?' 'It wasn't in the pack'

I have a G&T dd, she's now 9. The EP has seen her but for different reasons. I don't think there is much merit in asking to see EP, they don't often do much.
You may wish to get him seen privately, if you feel he is G&T rather than just bright.

Sounds like he does need stretching in school but I doubt you will find it possible. It might be worth letting him go to school for the social side but stretching him at home. He is only 4, and the next few years are spent learning rules of social cues and behaviour IMO.

There is a tendency for school parents to be somehow offended by HE, in a similar way that nursery parents get annoyed at SAHMs. It's a bit bizarre tbh - to me, as long as the child is getting their needs (short and long term) met in the way that suits the child and the family, there is no problem. There are some pitfalls in HE that you have to watch for, but then there are pitfalls in school too, it is just that because HE is unusual people tend to focus on the bad points.

I say this as a mother with one child in nursery and the other in school, both of which are lovely, btw.

I would say that it could be worth having a look at what is offered in your area, both state and private if you can afford it and feel ok about it, as well as going along to some local HE groups. That way you at least know what the situation is.

I'm guessing it did OP. One is at Cambridge which apparently means I did good.
Check out local HE groups as they all differ and the unschooling (generally called child led learning in the UK) vs workbooks debate is as shouty as ever. And local schools.
You can change your mind whatever you choose to do first

It may be just me but the card thing is pretty normal for a 4 yr old. Ds isn't G&T academically but at that age knew the facts on several hundred football cards and knew if he already had the card or not when he got a new pack. I don't recall that sort of knowledge being uncommon for a child of his age.

It sounds as if you aren't that interested in what school has to offer your ds which may be why you weren't resistant to his refusal to go. I think you have to be hugely confident to HE as ensuring your ds fulfills his potential is the most important job you can ever do. Personally I'd find it hard to have the required objectivity and I'd worry that ds would miss out. For example his school discovered that he was exceptionally talented in area. I just assumed that ds was like others of his age until the school told me otherwise.

I haven't really come here for your assessment of my child MollieO and I'm sure that many people are aware of their child's gifts without assessments. The 'oh that's normal for a x year old' thing in G & T is a little wearing

Thanks KalSkirata.

And thanks to WordsAreNoUse

read lots more john holt, and also john taylor gatto.

the home ed forum has a list of interesting more current HE and unschooling commentators. i like sandra dodd but there are loads. i kind of like the blog 'i'm unschooled. yes i can write'. she isn't for everyone, but has grown up to be a very articulate if not mainstream advocate for unschooling and alternative education.

fwiw, we have been toying with he for ds1, but largely because school doesn't suit him at all - square peg, round hole.

this one

i find the concept of unschooling fascinating, and i think with a motivated child it would work. it's difficult to reconcile 'g&t' with unschooling though, as the one relies very heavily on assessment and peer group comparisons, and the other requires complete disregard for such measures. an interesting contradiction