Lets open a can of worms - what are the pros and cons of letting a child go up a year.

[ohmygosh123]

I'm in France at the moment, and my DD has been put up a year in the French system - all very normal here apparently. In the same way repeating a year is quite accepted. Basically you technically have a choice - but saying no was not a real option - and DD has thrived on it, both friendships and academically.

We'll be coming back to the UK eventually, but in the meantime the posts about putting children up a year has got me thinking. Is it a good plan or not. (I was put up a year and it didn't make school that much more interesting - I still snoozed through most of it.)

How does differentiation work - and do they do it in independent schools? Or is it more state primaries that do it. Then how does it work when they go up to secondary school? Do they keep the differentiation up - I can't work out how they can, remembering what my school was like.

So what do they do with kids that are like little sponges and can't get enough of learning. And what do parents do?

I don't have a proper view either way - but am very interested in other people's experiences. All I want is to keep DD's desire to learn alive.

some independent schools do - DS has been put up a year (in prep school) - it happened very early, in fact, as he was moved (at the school's suggestion) from pre-school to YR. Had he struggled at any point the option would have been there to repeat a year, and it is common enough in the school for DC to repeat years that it wouldn't have been too strange if he had.

Pros - keeps him interested and challenged (he is academically in the top 10% of the year he is now in) - as you say, it keeps alive his desire to learn.
- in our case it's the right place for him physically (he is one of the tallest, even in the year he is now in)
- the theory is that he will repeat the last year of prep school, but they will do lots of broadening stuff with him (extra modern language, greek, etc) and lots of prep for scholarship exam(s)

Cons - his emotional immaturity vs his classmates occasionally shows
- if he were in a school with an obvious secondary school which most DC go on to, he would either have to carry all the way through ahead of his age group or would be a year behind his friends

..which comes to my major concern. It works well (or has worked well so far for us) at primary level, but I had friends who went into (independent) secondary schools a year (sometimes 2) early (or were put up a year after they arrived) and they all, without exception, found it really hard. Most did OK academically, but school was not a happy place for them. I don't want that for DS - the thought of putting a 12yo into a new school in a group of rising 14yos just feels wrong - hence the plan to repeat the year, and hope to find a secondary school where he will not be out of place in his chronological year group IYSWIM.

I know someone in the same situation as your DD in France, and I know her mother was largely concerned about the lack of consultation - as you say, saying no was not a real option - and the question emotional maturity.

my experience working with parents and children from the french system is that there are many differences in methodologies when compared to the uk e.g in some subjects there is a reliance on and expectation of the simple remembering and regurgitation of facts which can make adapting to the british system difficult initially. so that would be one thing to keep in mind when you do integrate back in to the UK. also if she is in a french language program she may be behind in her written english. these factors may mean it would be advisable to consider which year group you place in - so if advancing a year when you return would mean going straight into a gcse year, you might be better to go for year 9 to give her a year to adjust. Or you might come back and put her into year 6 rather than 7, so she can go up to secondary with a known cohort. Expect some culture shock on re-entry. It is normal (and have a look at stuff on 3rd culture kids). Re differentiation in secondaries, it is variable. Some subjects like maths will set from year 7, others will teach in tutor groups for the whole of ks3. Therefore you would need to look at the individual schools in the area you relocate to. Hope that helps.

I knew someone who was put up a year in the UK (Cheshire, early 1970s) and she felt it was a terrible decision in hindsight. Social disaster. She cultivated a whole manner of pretending to be much simpler & dimmer than she was.

My guess is that in a system (like french, USA) where it's commonplace that it can be handled very well, but not good in a system like the UK where it is extremely unusual. I've read that in education systems where they commonly promote/hold back, that very few teachers get trained how to differentiate well, which means considerable drawbacks in small schools/for the emotionally immature/those with asynchronous development, etc.

I think all primary schools will differentiate work - some will be a bit ahead of others in things like numeracy, reading, spelling. They tend to work in groups within the classroom.

In secondary schools, there is usually some kind of setting, though not always right from the start. In my school we were put into sets for maths at the end of the first term. So those who were ahead could be given more challenging work, and those who were behind could get extra work covering the basics. By the second year we were put into sets for French. By 3rd year we were in sets for all subjects, depending on what levels we were reaching and what types of exam we'd be put into.

I think that might be quite different from the French system, from what I've heard of it?

The down-side of putting children up a year, for me, would be -

Can they go up to secondary school with their class, or will they have to re-do a year at that stage?
What if they are still at the top of the class - what do you do then?
And the biggy - how do you deal with friendships/emotional maturity when most of the class are hitting puberty, and your DC is clearly still a child? Do you let them have the same freedom to go to parties etc when they are a year younger?

Overall, I think more differentiation, but staying with your yeargroup is the best solution. But if moving up is common in France, then your DC may not be the only one in the class in that situation, which perhaps reduces the impact.

I am interested now to know if anyone has any recent positive experiences of DC being a year ahead at secondary school? It was a long time ago, but I know my parents fought hard against me or DB being put up a year because of what they had seen other DC go through (put a boy 2 years ahead and then constantly criticise him for being immature - a St Pauls Boys special!)

In France they would keep her up a year all the way through - unless she failed the required targets. Quite normal and I'm not worried - the idea of continuing education is France is a different matter, but that is nothing to do with being put up a year - just the joy that seems to be lost in education.

I was up a year at school, and it was absolutely fine socially. Plus I effectively got a free year out, and rejoined my proper year group at university, where they did check IDs. Any hassles I had, were a direct consequence of my mother's parenting techniques, not schooling. And yes I went out into pubs from 15 every Friday, but by choice never got wasted.

My concern is I was bored despite going up a year, at that was a school which subdivided the A stream into three sets, did maths and french a year early etc etc. Then again my class generally went round causing havoc and mucking about, and didn't really engage with lessons - more like a tedium to be endured.
So if you are going to be bored anyway, what is the point of going up a year IYSWIM.

Some kids at my school started having sex in my Year 7 class - I was like why do you want to do it against a wall outside a youth club .... but then alot of the oldest kids in the class thought exactly the same as me. Basically yuck! I think 2 years ahead would be different though?

I was always against her going up a year (it was suggested in the UK as an option - so I left the country!) as she is a July birthday!!!! Less of an issue in France as their year starts from 1st January.

The basic problem (other than any maturity issues) is if she is very bright, so say jumped from UK year 3 to year 5, then after a while she would still be super bright and say by year 7 would be ready to jump up another year. It doesn't solve the problem of stretching a bright child

Squiggle, how do you think he will feel about repeating a year - presumably Year 8? My DD is tall too, so everyone thinks she is older than she is.

I knew quite a few boys at Cambridge who had gone up a year, and didn't seem to have suffered confidence wise. As a massive generalisation, my male gay friends had more problems at private independent academic schools, than those who were a year ahead - particularly if they were tall / good all rounders.

As a really bizarre point, my 6th form (boys school, co-ed 6th form) had 'the red book' with everyone's dates of birth. So my first 2 months were bliss, then the day that blasted book came out, I had a spell of notoriety. But all the girls did to varying extents.

It is a dilemma, I am hoping to avoid by finding out about this differentiation thing that I keep hearing people go on about, but I don't really understand. I'd like her to stay with her peers in an ideal world. But it is artificial anyway, especially for kids around the cut off dates.

Do people know if independent schools are good at stretching bright kids. DD will do what she is told and behave even if bored with a bit of distracted doodling (I've drummed it into she is not to play up if bored as not fair on everyone else). But then it means that teachers assume she is happy when she isn't.

Any idea what to do mummytime. As your post explains the problems I had perfectly. DD adores learning ...... always desperate to extend herself ..... and I don't want her to lose it. Once I lost it (Year 7) I never really got it back.

It was the right thing for my DS, but it's a very lazy way to deal with a bright child (and DS isn't as young for his year as your DD would be as he has a November b'day). What you need is a school/class where it is "cool" to be clever, and to work hard - that culture has to exist for a really bright child to thrive, and reach their potential.

[eeek] at Y7 antics - my baby boy is in Y5

Hopefully my final question ...... what is the point then of differentiating at primary, as presumably will be repeating things at secondary, unless you have a class full of kids who are at the same level, which is unlikely in a big school.

I remember I learnt nothing new in secondary school in french, maths or english until summer term of year 8, and that was moving from a private primary school to a large state school which streamed across 7-8 classes.

Some independent schools are good at stretching, some aren't, you have to investigate an find out. Most schools I know would not be happy to find out they have a child just doodling so as to not distract the class.
State schools can be very good at stretching too, especially some Grammars and some large Comprehensives (large enough to have the critical mass of bright kids).
You need to ask about gifted and talented provision, also what they will do if she is advanced in her French, but maybe not as advanced in other subjects. However at least here, schools are quite used to pupils who are advanced in one language (usually mother tongue). Also consider either NAGC or some other group linked to her interests, for instance Imperial college London runs some courses for G and T students in Maths Science and Engineering in the summer.

ohmygosh - I don't know how he will feel, TBH - I got all teary-eyed watching the "leavers" and the fuss that is made of them at the end of the year and thinking that DS will have to watch all his friends go through that knowing that he is staying, but I know it is far from unique and the staff assure me it will be fine etc, etc ....I don't know but right now I think it is better than dropping him into a new school before he is really ready, and I think the school will be able to get him excited about all the cool stuff he can do when he does the year (yes, it would be Y8 he repeats) again. He knows this is the plan in principle, but I don't think he has reached a point of thinking it through at all.

As for independent vs state - there are good and bad schools in both, and I think you have to go and test, but in general independents will have lower class sizes and more specialist staff so should be better able to stretch (gently!) a very able child. You would have to shop around, though as it depends a lot on the school/head/staff in question.

My concern about being moved up a year is that it assumes the only important aspect of schooling is the academic side. As others have said, it's essential that G & T are properly catered for at a school and bumping up a year isn't always the best way forward. perhaps going into the class above for maths sessions or Literacy, but staying within year group is an option?

My DH was bumped up a year and says on reflection he wishes he'd had more leeway to play and mix socially, not just keep his head down. His academic ability was stretched at the expense of his social aptitude and he's still painfully shy and socially abrupt (constantly misread as arrogance) today. rigorously intellectually stretched at all moments or socially at ease and able to read others? No prizes for guessing which counts for more in the adult world.

(Of course it's not always one at the expense of another but in primary especially, children do develop emotionally at very different rates year on year and that has to be taken into consideration.

DS is up a year, as were all my family born in winter term (small private schools with working mum wanting to get back to work). We are a tall family with a tendency for September/October birthday (must enjoy Decmber/January ).

DS is also not the youngest in the year and others are up a year not necessarily due to academics (would not say DS is up due to academics either) just that they had a nice group of friends that had all gone to the nursery/reception and were deemed ready. It is a run through school so should be no issue of repeating years etc.

I think repeating a year and having to make new friends must be difficult, also being obviously young for your year group. Accademically they differentiate a lot for DS and he has lots of 1-2-1 so I do not think the year skip was used to be an easy option (which I would be wary of).

The big problem at a state primary school is that a child put up a year won't be allowed to go to secondary early (quite rightly, in my opinion, it's a hard enough transition at nearly 11) so will have to mark time in year 6.

Most secondary schools in the uk stream,though, so they should carry on getting differentiated work. I think that generally in France hey do whole class teaching- which might be why you were concerned about repeating work once they get to secondary.

But generally, it seems to me that differentiated work in the "proper" year group is the best solution. Being academically advanced doesn't mean being socially advanced, or advanced at games or music or art or playing playground football - better to say with your friends in my opinion!

I was put up a year in Secondary school and would not wish it on my worst enemy.

Education in England has changed a lot recently, it is not about learning facts as much as understanding, and then applying that knowledge. There is a lot of repetition from year to year, but the brightest students ideally are then challenged to understand and use their knowledge more deeply.
So you might cover the structure of a newspaper article in year 4 (DD2 has just done this) but you will still be writing work in the style of a newspaper article in year 8. However you will in year 8 be expected to have a good headline, a gripping first paragraph, a number of quotes from witnesses, and a conclusion. Someone who is gifted in English, would be expected to closely match the language used by their witnesses to that persons role eg. eye-witness, police, scientist. They might even slant their piece with the bias of a particular newspaper.
In science knowledge goes from predicting which obkects sink and float, to why in terms of volume, mass and density, to what this means in terms or particles, to maybe explaining why ice floats on water.

Disclaimer: I have no experience of this, so it's just my tuppence worth. I was a very precocious child and some independent assessor said I should be accelerated. My parents said no, not really sure if they had particular reasons though!

So in a purely hypothetical sense, these would be my concerns:

• even one year is quite a big difference at primary school (though there is nearly a year between summer-born DD and her autumn-born classmates, but that's a whole other thread...) so the younger child might find it hard to fit in, or try to act older.

• if a child is really advanced then a year might not be enough - they could be standing out from their older classmates for being younger, and STILL be miles ahead of them.

• it is presumably quite rare for somebody to be advanced in absolutely everything, so just moving them up might create problems in their weaker areas. I would also be a bit worried about PE and PHSE.

As I said I have nothing to do with this, but those are my thoughts anyway. I would think in many cases it could be good to move up just for particular subjects (I guess maths or English would be the main ones), but really for a year or two difference I would hope it would be adequately provided by the current teacher - it certainly was for me.

Talkin :( sorry it was a bad experience, why was it so horrible?

If DS was only advanced academically I too would be uncomfortable - in fact, the decision was made at such an early age that it was more "he knows everything he needs to know not to be left behind, and he just fits better with that group" - they were right (and very perceptive, given that he had only been there 2 weeks at the time) and he still does. He would stand out like a sore thumb in his "proper" year group - but I am hoping that because they do lots of mixed-year sport etc, etc that he should have enough good-enough friends in the year below to be OK repeated Y8 (it's a small school, so he knows them all already at some level). He would have had to make new friends anyway as they scatter to the 4 winds to different senior schools. I am hoping the extra year, and being one of the oldest instead of always being the youngest, will give him extra confidence before he moves school.

On the whole, though, I think that UK schools are pretty good at this stuff nowadays and are certainly a whole lot more flexible than French schools (not always a good thing, but probably good on balance in this instance).

A lot of children are actually put in split classes eg year 1-2 classes purely because of managing class size. It is not being put up or down a year and they do the same work as the children in the other class. This happens in my daughters school and I have heard parents say their child has been put up a year but it is normally done on age rather than ability and each child what ever class they are in will work to their own level anyway. But they will not be going to secondary school early.

Have no experience of private schools....

Girls private school
I'm young in my own year let alone the one above
so I was in classes with girls 19 months older than me : socially a nightmare
academically - teachers expected me to be some sort of a whizz as I'd been moved up and then gave me grief when I wasn't

I had the brains to get through O Levels but not the maturity to pass A's - flunked
am not in contact with ANYBODY from school - including a girl I was at uni with who then lived in the next road to me for 5 years

I know several people who were moved up (mostly private school, mostly 30+ years ago) and NONE of us would ever allow it to be done to our children, no matter how bright

Talkin - sounds exactly like what happened to a lot of my primary school contemporaries - and not to me because my parents refused to co-operate with such nonsense. Poor you.