Private or state?

[mrsshears]

hi everyone
I thought i would start a new thread for this,we may be in a position soon where a move to private could be an option for dd,other than finacial implications what other things should i consider if we decide to move dd?
I also have a few questions, if anyone can help i would be really greatful
.Is private always better than state? are there bad private schools?
.Is diversity an issue? (sorry if that sounds offensive to anyone but i hate to think dd may be the poor child surrounded by wealthy children).
.Has anyone moved to the private sector and regretted it?

Thanks in advance

There are very many bad private schools. There are also good private schools which may not suit your child. You should do your research carefully- internet, Good Schools Guide, word of mouth, MN, visit etc.

Not many schools have only wealthy children. Many years ago but I remember on moving from state to private at 11 just how much less materialistic it was and how little people cared about who had what. It is, however, worth thinking about the sacrifices (if any) which you may have to make. If you have good state schools they may or may not be worth it. As far as other sorts of diversity are concerned, I think that independent schools are often more mixed than state schools.

Thank you vixsatis,thats really helpful.
I will take a look at the good schools guide.

It really depends what you're looking at. If you are wanting a private school to enrich a gifted child then I would wait until Year 3/4 and find a good one with specialist teachers in virtually every subject and a school that starts Latin and French early - these schools tend to be very expensive. One of the positive things about state schools is the short days so a lot of extending can go on at home. View the 3-4years of primary school as a social experience and do some academic work at the appropriate level at home.

Thanks colleger ,that is more or less the position we are currently in.
We have a huge variation of dd's performance at home v's school and do lots of extension work at home.

Whereabouts are you?

Private is not necessarily better than state. I would approach each school you are interested in and discuss what you would like for dd. Go armed with data.

Agree with vixsatis. Yes, there are bad private schools, and there are many state schools that are better than some private schools. What you need is to find the school which is right for your DD and her particular needs, so that means researching all the options available in your area - visiting schools, talking to parents and teachers etc.

I wouldn't worry about the social/income disparity thing, unless you are looking at the kind of home counties prep school full of offspring of the super-rich. The private schools my two DCs go to (city day schools, not London) are very unsnobby and have parents doing all sorts of jobs - doctors & lawyers etc, but also owners of a small Chinese grocery, a midwife, a taxi-driver and so on.

I have two bright children (in G& T schemes but not genius level, iykwim) . One moved to private from state in year 7, and when I saw how much happier and engaged with school work he was there, compared with a couple of years of boredom/learning nothing/havings Sats preparation shoved down his throat at his 'outstanding' state primary, I took the decision to move DD in year 3' and she is thriving too. But it does all depend on the individual child and the school.

Agree with most of the above.

I'm in a sort-of-ish similar situation and have looked into the subject a little....

There's definitely good and not so good private schools, so you will need to research them much more carefully than you would a state school. So much more depends on finding the right fit between a school, your child - and your family. I have been adviced to ask the difficult questions (such as "what do you do about recreational drug use") when you have a look around - although obviously use your discretion in HOW you ask! - you will get a lot more insight on how they answer those than the easy questions.

Apparently some private schools are very much more for "media" types and rich/famous families - I have heard that the academic standards leave a lot to be desired in some of these - but you can also see why they would be the schools of choice for some people!

Personally, the one question I would want to find out about is what are the typical occupations of the other parents (i.e. are we going to fit in as a family? Are all the other families going to be holidaying in the Maldives if we prefer to go to Butlins in Bognor? I wouldn't want to send my DC to anywhere they'd be pitied as "the poor kids").

Also, I have been tipped to be wary of the Good Schools Guide, and also take the Inspection Reports (is it ISI or ICI that inspects private schools? I forget just now) with a pinch of salt - as money changes hands between parents and schools, these organisations and guides are far from unbiased, there's a marketing element to them.

The best way is just going to visit them, and observe lessons, behaviour, ask to see their results, ask about discipline, etc.

I have the details of someone who specialises in helping families find schools - she's not cheap but is excellent at what she does. If you (or anyone else!) want details, feel free to PM me!

Phew, that turned into an essay - you can tell I've been off MN for a while!!

From a pratical point of view ask about child/teacher ratio, specialist teacher provision, extra curricular activites and cost implication of these (there are often additional charges). Also ask about teacher turn-over - do they keep their staff or see a rapid turnover (which will generally indicate an unhappy staff, which tells you something about the school). What is the make up of the staff - do they have a good mix of youth and experience? What place do they give to drama, the arts and school trips in the curriculum. If they only take to primary age, where do they feed to and what might be the cost implication to you of that later move? What role do they give IT in the classroom - do children use computers regularly, do the have IWB (Interactive Whiteboards being used regularly in the class - child use, not just as a teacher presetation board). Do they have links with the community, if so what and how are they utilised? Do they have a G & T coordinator or someone with similar role? What enrichment do they provide for the exceptionally gifted and what experience do they have in this area? Do they acknowledge the existence of truly gifted children? What successes have they had with and for these children and how would they work with you and your child if she were to attend there?

And a big key one I would go for is if they can put you in touch with a parent/parents with a similar child who can talk to you honestly about how their child has fared at the school. Talking with other parents will tell you a lot, but do be cautious of the parent who has nothing to do but focus on their childs school - as some become over critical. Try to speak with someone who can give you a balanced view. No school is perfect and no school is a total faiure with any child, whether private or state. Remember that whilst you may be seeking bursaries or scholarships you are still the one shopping for a school: you are interviewing them so don't be afraid to ask the right questions to find the best fit.

Thanks adoptmama - that's incredibly helpful!!! :)

Thanks everyone,all very helpful stuff.

eyeofnewt congrats on your other post

There are very bad private schools around. And some exceptionally good ones. Don't be fooled by the 'flashness' of the facilities - the best schools don't need to impress with brand new sports centres and suchlike, whereas the mediocre ones do...

Diversity I personally think isn't an issue at all. My middle-ish class friend (semi detached but large home, SAHM in her 40's) has far more difficulties fitting in with all the 25 yr old mums at her son's state school than any of the families at my DC's private school have fitting in. We have people from all types of backgrounds, including some that pretty much bankrupt themselves to give their children an education, and they slot in with everyone just as easily as the wives of the CEOs/Lords do. Also I think there is sometimes more cultural diversity at many schools (but it depends) which I think balances out the more restricted social diversity. I also think that kids at these schools don't care about material stuff very much (more interested in who plays footie/rugby/hockey best, who is top in maths, etc. That's the stuff they use as badges of honour rather than nikes/xboxes), and the parents seem to be quite clubby because they are all (a) passionate about their kids education, and (b) all a bit older than average.

I don't know anyone who has moved to private and regretted it. Saying that, I do know a couple of families who have moved from private to state and not regretted it (although they don't for a minute begrudge the time their children spent in private - they simply ran out of money and were then surprised to find that state schools could actually be very good too!)

One thing to bear in mind is that school days are much longer than state school, so although your child gets the educational benefit of this, you are then restricted in the amount of time available to choose after school activities. Which is either a good or bad thing, depending on your politics...

Is private always better than state? ...No

Are there bad private schools?....Yes

Is diversity an issue? Could be, it depends a lot on the school (I think Ds school does not show a great mixture of society). However I have never been aware of anyone being in anyway criticised for lack of wealth/holidays etc. I went to both private and state schools and did not feel judged for family wealth (or lack of ) in one more than the other. In fact holidays/sports cars etc were more popular at the grammar school than the private where lots were there on church/armed service/parent teacher burasaries and fee reductions.

Has anyone moved to the private sector and regretted it? Personally no.

Must admit Stillsquiffys post highlights a lot of what is wrong in UK PLC. ie main difference in finances is AGE (young have none). So a SAHM in 40s will have far more than mothers in their 20's. A SAHM in their 20's with spouse earning enough for rent/mortgage/student loan repayments with inflated house prices and money for private school is as rare as hens teeth.

"Diversity I personally think isn't an issue at all. My middle-ish class friend (semi detached but large home, SAHM in her 40's) has far more difficulties fitting in with all the 25 yr old mums at her son's state school than any of the families at my DC's private school have fitting in..............the parents seem to be quite clubby because they are all (a) passionate about their kids education, and (b) all a bit older than average.

That 25 year old mother maybe every bit as passionate about their child's education.

Good advice from adoptamum....

From a pratical point of view ask about child/teacher ratio, specialist teacher provision, extra curricular activites and cost implication of these (there are often additional charges). Also ask about teacher turn-over - do they keep their staff or see a rapid turnover (which will generally indicate an unhappy staff, which tells you something about the school). What is the make up of the staff - do they have a good mix of youth and experience? What place do they give to drama, the arts and school trips in the curriculum. If they only take to primary age, where do they feed to and what might be the cost implication to you of that later move?

Also as adoptamum later mentions: Do they have links with the community, if so what and how are they utilised?

Personally I am not to bothered about computers!

I would probably more subtly mention about intelligence eg just say what do they do for children advanced in........(I know you have documentation to back up your point if necessary).

I think beware of success at school level (GCSE and A-levels are ridiculously easy now) so a child would in the eyes of the school be a great success (great grades for the league tables, place at top Uni/course ) but not be coping socially/emotionally/poor work ethic......I am not sure that is a real success.

Also we have absolute discretion about DS at his school so would not be sure if school would be happy to pass details on. We are however exceptionally happy with his schooling.

Other points to consider: what is their curriculum? It does not have to be NC so you want to know about depth, breadth and quality assurance. What is their homework policy? What reading scheme do they use. What is their discipline policy and what kinds of discipline do they use. What kind of leadership opportunities exist in the primary school eg. school council as these can be great activities (and debate club and so on). An important consideration for kids - and one we often overlook as adults - are what are the toilets and school lunches like :)?
How often do you get reports or parent meetings. Are they open to you asking for random meetings (honestly, many are way less accommodating in this respect than state schools). And so on.
Is it an Independent Schools Council accredited school? If so it will undergo regular inspections with the ISI (every 3 years). Can you see copies of their inspection report (if not it will be on the ISI web site)? If it is not a member of the ISC it will be inspected by Ofsted, so again reports should be easily available.
Do they work towards standardised public exams e.g. common entrance or gcse, and what are the results like? Look for a wide range of information and double check what you can! I'm always amused by the fact that the ISC web site still wrongly puts Reception as KS1 (it is EYFS) and Year 10 as KS3 when it is the start of KS4. It gives years 12 & 13 as KS4 when more commonly they are referred to as KS5 or, more commonly, simply sixth form. Such basic information should be correct :)
If you are going to view schools are you planning on taking DD with you or will you only return with her if you are giving the school serious consideration? You don't want to take her out of school day after day to drag her round schools and have her fall in love with one she will ultimately not be attending. However you do want to at least get an impression of her take on the school. When making an appointment to see the school ask what kind of visit you will initially be given - best thing is to see classes taking place with your DDs age group and to meet and talk to staff who might be involved in teaching her rather than just getting the staged Open Day tour. Do switch your mobile off :) I've had visitors stand at the back of my room and disrupt lessons with a ringing phone - I've even had one parent answer the call! Do the children seem happy? Are they engaging with the teacher or simply sitting at desks writing lots and lots and lots? Are the teachers welcoming? Are they sitting behind a desk leaving the children to get on with it or are they active in the room (and it is ok to be behind a desk - I'm often there :))?
Once you have narrowed down a school or fixed on one arrange to have DD visit with you too. When visiting try to get an understanding of the teaching methodology used because you will know what style will suit your DD: a school may have excellent resources, results etc but it may not fit your child.
:) Can't think of anything else - and probably just as well ;)

I have known parents move to private and regret it, but it is very hard to do so, as it does show you have wasted your money. I have also known people move their kids at least for a while to state, with no financial need to do so.
I would look hard at any schools and ask the tough questions about how they stretch the brightest (and is this just moving up a year, which can only be done once really).

The question I have is will private school actually differentiate and teach a child who is ahead even if their level is above the rest of the children in the class.
At the moment dd is in top set for maths and is given harder work sheets than others in the group. However this is not the same as teaching her new things.

Would private school be able to teach individually or would it be a waste of money?

Richmal - depends on the school, as in all things. You can't compare on the level of 'all state schools' versus 'all private schools', you need to look at the specific schools which are available to you and find out how they work, ask lots of questions.

But generally, with smaller class sizes and often some element of selection in the entry process, private schools can be better set up to cope with children working ahead of their age - selection means there should be a higher proportion of them, and smaller classes make it easier to differentiate at an individual level.

There are good and bad schools in both sectors. you have to look.

Be very careful not to be too impressedby flashy facilities and beautiful buildings or scruff and down at heelness- schools (in both sectors) are sometimes not all ( or more) than they look.

Remember that private schools are selling themselves- they want your money so dig deep into what they tell you. State schools have policies - make sure thwt they are worth more than the paper they are written on.

In short. Do your research open mindedly.

We chose private secondary for my son (80% bursery). He's only been there for a term and he's loving it. As well as learning french, he's learning latin which the local state schools don't offer, He's streamed which the state school don't do in the first years, so he's learning at a more accelerated rate than before.

Sport every afternoon with a-d teams so everyone is involved.
Debating and book clubs.

I expect that he would get similar gcse and a level results whichever school he went to (although discipline is much stricter at the private school, my son will play up if allowed/bored), but it's the added sideways enrichment I like at the moment, and the very high expectations of the pupils.

Thanks for replies. Like the OP I'm still undecided.

Dear mrsshears we did what your are contemplating at the beginning of last year and didn't look back, DD was moved from local primary to a good independent and so far so good, at the time we visited all the private schools in vicinity and after a lot of debate we made our choice.
Days are longer filled with activities, wrap around care is great, it includes supervised home work club, discipline is a very high priority, classes are small and teachers have been teaching in DD's school for years, over all positive environment.
Musical instruments are formally introduced from Y2, but if child wishes to start earlier it can be arranged form Y1, DD started cello in Y1, French and German is introduced twice a week from R and the maths department is awesome, children are streamlined particularly in maths in Y2 and taken to different classes for additional work, scholarships are offered on the basis of performance in sports and performance in maths, expectations are across the board very high.
When we made this decision, it wasn't easy, it meant financial sacrifices (we are not made of money, far from it) but have been pleasantly surprised at what we found in terms of "parents calibre", hard working people from all walks of life, some struggling more then others, but over all very pleasant and normal network of parents at pick up and collection time so and so we tend to socialise away from children.
Decision we made for DD also at the time did not sit very well morally with me and DH, both of us state educated, DS now 17 purely and exclusively state educated with a 12 glowing GCSE now doing his first year at sixth form, put it this way big believers in the state system of education we still are, but unforeseen circumstances dictated we had to choose different path for DD.
There are excellent and poor school in both sectors, and we as parents have to tailor make what suits our children best be it private or state.
iggly2 I don't agree at all that GCSE and A levels are ridiculously easy, these days any good school worth their weight is insisting on at least eleven GCSE's, they are anything but easy, DH has a degree in Engineering specialising in Mathematics for purposes of Mechanics, he looked at few DS's maths and physics practice papers and commented quietly "This is already hardcore staff, good luck to him".
Schools are simply much better at teaching and preparing for exams, then there were years ago, and exam students have many more resources available to them in this era of technological boom, that's all.

I have been on both side of a fence with my DC's, Am I any wiser? Am I doing the wright thing? Am I paying for something that I should not be paying for? I don't know, time will tell, DD is happier, progressing nicely, but then she might have done the same in the state, after the initial period of not being able to settle in class of 30. Good luck with whatever you decide,

Maths and physics are probably the easiest GCSEs around .