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Gifted and talented

Talk to other parents about parenting a gifted child on this forum.

Talented at music BUT...

33 replies

apprenticemum · 25/07/2011 23:59

My DD(11) is musically talented. She has earned a music scolarship, 1 of only 10 places to her secondary school, plays piano, sings beautifully and is about to start the saxaphone. The only problem is that she struggles with sight reading music which is putting her off. Although she had done piano and voice to grade 3 her talent made up for the poor sight reading scores but I know this will not continue if I can't get her help. Having no music skills myself, I am amazed at how she can hear a song or watch it played on utube and within an hour or so play it on the piano. It frustrates me to think that she is getting only half of the story so to speak but haven't the faintest idea where to start. Is there some way or somewhere that she can get some specialised tuition?

OP posts:
purplepidjin · 26/07/2011 00:10

Look for a teacher of Music Theory, or ask one of her existing teachers. She'll need to have passed Grade 5 Theory in order to progress beyond Grade 5 in her instruments anyway, so you're really only pre-empting that Wink

Stuff like this might help?

unitarian · 26/07/2011 00:18

My DD had the same 'problem' - kept dropping marks on sight reading.

Beware of thinking of it as a PROBLEM. DD was fine once she got a good theory teacher - and stopped worrying about it.

confidence · 26/07/2011 00:28

I wouldn't be too worried about this. Yeah, being poor at sight-reading will always bring her exam marks down a bit, but exam marks don't really matter anyway.

IF she ends up in a career as a classical performer, session musician or pit band player, sight reading will be somewhat important. If she ends up in any other musical field, it won't be important at all. If she can listen to songs and work them out by ear in no time that shows a much deeper musicality that will be useful in all kinds of ways.

I've actually always thought sight reading, as tested by most exams, is somewhat artificial and irrelevant. As a professional musician, there are actually pretty few situations in which you're judged on your ability to play music you've never seen before for the FIRST time. Much more important is the ability to learn music quickly and play it after a couple of run-throughs.

I'm sure she'll get better at it with practice, and obviously support that as much as possible. But it's not that big a deal. And remember that on the piano, EVERYONE struggles with sight reading because of the complexity of playing several lines at once. It's the nature of the beast.

apprenticemum · 26/07/2011 00:42

Confidence - Thanks for that, I have this awful fear that my lack of knowledge in her field may hold her back in some way because I do not know what she needs. When I was her age, I showed talent in art which my parents totally disregarded through ignorance. I had to wait until I was 38 before I could learn to shine. I am determined that her talent won't be stifled whether she decides to go into music or become a circus juggler!

OP posts:
madhattershouse · 26/07/2011 00:50

I can't read music at all...never could! I can play-by-ear which your dd seems to be doing too. Exams are not the be all and end all, musical ability and the way you play is far more important at 11. If she is anything like me then 2 run throughs worth of listening and the starting note can be all you need to play a piece, my music teacher despaired of me staring out of the window during orchestra practise as the note on the page mean't nothing, I did not gain any exms for my playing but played 1st flute with someone who could sight read perfectly..during a performance she got lost and I managed to get her back on track by looking at the pattern of the music, IYSWIM, she couldn't play without the score Shock

DeWe · 26/07/2011 14:50

I think a lot of it's confidence. Dh always thought sightreading (piano and trumpet) was a bag full of free marks so he enjoyed it and he also did a lot of it when playing in groups and things, so he thinks of it as being important. Unlike scales which he hated. Grin
Dd1 (yr5) has just done her grade 3 in voice and piano and she is scared by the sightreading and sounds it, so she usually only just passes that section. We've been getting some fun stuff to play (and sometimes sing at the same time) for her to practice the sightreading. You can also buy practice books for each grade.

unitarian · 27/07/2011 01:45

apprenticemum I can't play at all and had to find it all out the hard way from when my DD first asked to learn piano. Since then we've explored the world of woodwind, strings and music theory together. I still can't play but I've learned a lot from the sidelines.
She had a crisis of confidence in early teens because a fool of a peripatetic teacher told her she couldn't sing well enough to pass the aural bit. She sings beautifully but it needed a brilliant music teacher at school who strong-armed her into a choir and convinced her she could sing before she overcame that glitch (and a new flute teacher).
She had glitches in sight reading too in the early grades but always got through to merit standard because she played her pieces well. She didn't get a distinction until grade 8 - that's the one that matters and opens up doors. By then it really doesn't matter what mark you got in grade 3 or 4 or whether you dropped a shed load of marks for sight-reading at grade 2.

What really is important is finding the right teacher at the right time- one who makes the lessons enjoyable as well as worthwhile. A good teacher will identify weaknesses and prepare a pupil well for each exam.
Keep your ear to the local grapevine, collect phone numbers of recommended teachers, join the local music centre and enjoy the concerts. It's not really about passing exams.

apprenticemum · 27/07/2011 22:11

Unitarian - Thanks DD took delivery of the Sax today and I have her promise that she will start as she means to go on - re sight reading as she admitted that with piano, she winged it by ear most of the time. My fingers are firmly crossed!

OP posts:
maree1 · 28/07/2011 21:49

Sax and piano - great choices. Theory - get practice papers and do them with her. You can learn together. But get a recommendation - or three - for a good theory teacher.

unitarian · 29/07/2011 00:17

It'll be an enjoyable ride!
DD also learned the value of practising scales quite late on.
She took on pupils of her own last year before she went to uni and I was tickled to death to hear her telling them how important scales are.......

AnaisB · 07/08/2011 20:53

If it's something that you and DD want to change just talk to her current teacher about it. I always did more sight-reading in instrument lessons than in theory lessons. (As I remember it theory lessons and exams don't involve any/much sight reading at all.) Also, as with all skills the best way to improve is to practice. If her musical ear has meant that she's managed to get away without sight reading it may be that she just hasn't had much practice at that skill so far. Whatever you do make sure it stays fun for her though.

Moominmammacat · 30/09/2011 16:55

What's theory got to do with sight-reading? Practice! Join a band or orchestra, even better a choir. It comes as they get older if they do enough of it ... no mystery.

pigsinmud · 03/10/2011 13:57

My dh is a musician and he would disagree with confidence. He turns up to quite a few gigs where he is sight reading in the rehearsal.

He sees sight reading and aural tests as good indicators of how "musical" someone is - obviously they are not the only indicators.

saramusic · 06/10/2011 10:05

I am a professional classical flautist and teacher and I think sight reading needs a good practice. It' s absolutely possible to improve it. It's important to read a lot of different music from all styles and periods.
I would recommend this young girl to practice a bit the sight reading everyday for warming up on the instrument. I would avoid the sight reading if she's tired. e.g after 2 hours of practice. It requires a good concentration.
Also I would try to find out if she needs to change something about her aptitude in front of the new piece of music: Does she get nervous? Does she find that boring? Does she think before playing or try to play immediately?

The sight reading could be an exciting exercise useful to know a lot of music and it helps to increase abilities on the instrument...... I was (and I am) always curious about new pieces of music to play and this helped me to achieve a high level in the performance.

CURIOUSMIND · 06/10/2011 13:06

I am just surprised at age of 11 got grade 3 for piano and vocal is called talented and qualified for a scholarship.Easypeasy !
Well ,you need to work on your sightreading, otherwise, you have nowhere to go.

ginandtonicandcrisps · 06/10/2011 18:55

curiousmind I am afraid I thought that too Blush I also world not consider grade 3 at age 11 particularly musically talented.. But then I know girls that age on grade 7. And it does depend on whoever did the scholarship assessment opinion on potential!
However, poor sight reading and/or poor theory needs the work!
My dd does sight-reading as part of her daily practise. That helps I think, little and often...

topsy1 · 08/10/2011 11:58

there are some good books out there to help with improving sightreading - I use a series called 'Improve your sightreading' which give lots of different types of practice according to grade and instrument - rhythmic, melodic and other. I also suggest that getting a book of tunes they enjoy ie folk music for violinists help. This seems to work for my pupils, though i'm sure there are totally different methods out there! good luck!

ImperialBlether · 08/10/2011 16:21

I disagree with confidence, too. My son's studying music at university and the better your sight reading, the better the chance of finding work.

confidence · 08/10/2011 23:20

My dh is a musician and he would disagree with confidence. He turns up to quite a few gigs where he is sight reading in the rehearsal.

Oh I don't doubt that.

But if the music is unknown or complex, some of the musicians at that rehearsal will make a mistake here and there and nobody will care too much. They'll make a mental note of where they need to be careful, if necessary look over it between the rehearsal and concert, etc. My point was only that was really matters, in terms of them getting hired again, is how they play in the performance - after they've already familiarised themselves with the notes. It's certainly important that they have to cover that familiarisation proces extremely quickly - but that's still a different thing from sight reading per se.

Also, I didn't deny that sight reading is important for classical & session musicians and the like. Certainly if you're a classical performer, you need to be able to do it. It's just that that's only one part of the music industry. If the OP's DD ends up a singer-songwriter, pop producer-arranger or jazz musician (all of which would be quite natural paths for her, going by the abilities described in the OP), then it will be much less important and possibly almost non-existent.

ImperialBlether · 09/10/2011 10:21

But, confidence, you have to write the music for others, too. If you've written a song or a piece, you have to be able to write it for every instrument, unless you're playing all of them - that's okay in the studio but not live.

confidence · 09/10/2011 20:10

That's not really how it works though. In the pop world and other areas bordering on it, people just don't generally work from notation. In fact the skills the OP says her DD finds natural - listening to a song and just working it out by ear - are far more important because that's how live arrangements of songs are actually worked out.

On the odd occasion when notation is required, such as when using a string section or more sophisticated brass section, the artist will draft in an arranger for precisely that purpose, who'll be paid a day rate for the work while the artist/writer gets all the royalties. It's a peripheral, specialist and non-essential area of the commercial music industry.

Paul McCartney became one of the most successful songwriters ever without understanding anything about notation, and that's the rule not the exception. Even moreso now, when so much is done by computers.

Of course it's completely different in the classical world, as I said. And just to be clear - I believe that teaching thorough musical literacy is important. It's just that people are good at and gravitate towards different things, and the classical-centric snobbery of music education has long written off people who are bad at sight reading as inferior musicians, accentuated the importance of it (which is fair enough) and ignored the importance of aural creativity and real-world ear training (which isn't).

When you consider how much grass roots pleasure people get out of playing in bands, or the fact that classical music accounts for less the 3% of recorded music sales, this doesn't really make sense.

Vegeromum · 12/11/2011 09:47

Musicians who play 'by ear' (ie without needing to see the score) and also those who memorise music easily are rarely good at sight reading too.
Conversely those who are good sight readers often find memorising and playing by ear more difficult. It's just that we all have different, preferred ways of learning.
In some countries, sight reading (indeed music reading of any sort) is thought to be unimportant. Celebrate your DD's achievements and strengths but also make sure she has a teacher who knows about learning theory as well as about music. Then support your DD in setting aside maybe just 5 minutes a day to playing / singing something from notation. The books by Alan Bullard, Joining the Dots are good for Grades 1 - 5 piano. (I'm not on commission here by the way - I'm just a music teacher !!)
If it's any reassurance, singers are rarely good at sight reading because they mainly learn by rote. Joining a choir where notated music is used will be invaluable for your DD. Also try using good websites for singing notes from the score, such as teoria at www.teoria.com which deals with interval pitching (ie the distance between one note and another) and E-MusicMaestro at www.e-musicmaestro.com/auraltests which gives practice at reading notes from the score at grades 4 and 5.

CURIOUSMIND · 18/11/2011 11:35

I agree that play by ear is very important.For me, it is about talent.My 8 years old listened to a 21st century peice , pointed out the clashy chord are from this key and that key and he then played through , left his teacher speachless. Me however, will never ever be able to learn this. Sightreading ( also called quick study in some country)however is something you can really work on. Joining the dots is a very good book for up to G5.

reallytired · 18/11/2011 11:41

To be a good musican you need the ablity to play by ear and to sight read. Learning to sight read well is hard work and boring at times. I had exactly the same problem as a child. Saying that not being able to read music isn't important is a bit like saying that learning to read is not essential. Learning to read music well and being able to play by ear are not mutrally exclusive.

I think that you daughter needs to go back a few steps and hope this isn't insulting. She needs to take some very simple music that she has not heard before and clap the rythmn while counting out loud. It might help her to get a metronome and to count and clap in time to. The metronome is a good way to get an idea of how fast to clap at different speeds. If a piece says largo or andante or prestisimo how fast you need to clap.

She needs to work through her music theory books and learn the terminology.

reallytired · 18/11/2011 11:46

"Musicians who play 'by ear' (ie without needing to see the score) and also those who memorise music easily are rarely good at sight reading too. "

In my personal experience, the ablity to play by ear made me incredbily lazy. As an adult I knuckled down and my music reading ablity improved dramatically.

No one is born able to read music. Its a skill that needs to be learnt just like reading a book.