Primary school teachers who are unable to keep up with a 9 year old

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Makes me want to scream.

DS3 now has to go for maths lessons with a different teacher because his techer is not good at maths - what the hell are we doing allowing people who can be beaten by a 9 year old qualify as teachers?

And don't get me started on the state of grammar and spelling

15 years of crap education policy leads to a generation of bloody idiots teaching the next generation

What about the on track students who are left in the class being taught maths by an adult who is patently not at the standard they would be expected to be when they reach secondary school? It fails them.

But yes DS3 is "alright Jack" and luckily for him he has 2 older brothers who are extremely competitive in showing him what he's doing wrong

I agree, but one of the disorientating things that has happened over the last decade is that so many subjects have been added, and the way in which you are supposed to teach them has changed unrecognisably. If you are caught teaching in an old-fashioned way, or forgetting one of the new and shiny details, then the SMT come down on you like a ton of bricks.
In many schools, teachers don't get peer support either.
They spot an error in someone's class and think That will deflect attention from me, I won't be the one in trouble.
If you feel demoralised and bullied and need to have approval from others, including parents, you don't share good ideas and resources either. You keep them and use them and keep all the glory and praise for yourself. You don't take advice and criticism well, because you are paranoid already.
So good teaching doesn't spread effectively.

I'm still intrigued about what hullygully said earlier - about the best teachers not actually getting in to teaching? What are your views on this MNers?

Well I am a lecturer who's worked at several of the 'top' universities (Oxbridge/Russell Group) and it's true that only rather a small proportion of finalists even consider teaching - though some will come to it later after trying something else. It's certainly not one of the obvious "milk round" professions. I'm not sure how much the 'fast track' has helped to lure in the more ambitious over the last ten years - perhaps someone can comment on this? My impression is that among arts and humanities students it's mostly seen as a 'fall back' option for those who a) aren't quite sure what they want to do and b) don't want to do anything corporate/city based. I imagine for graduates in sciences it would be even further down the list.

There was a lot of publicity about the 'TeachFirst' scheme a few years ago but that seems to have died down a bit.

I would say that anyone who sees it as a fallback or something they can do halfheartedly inevitably gets a nasty shock the first occasion they have to teach.

Teacher training colleges around here are worriedly warning that traditional teacher training methods are on the wane - they believe the GTP program will become more and more the way to do things. I think that can only be a good thing - lots more is learned actually teaching for as much time as possible.

I agree Feenie that it can be a tough surprise for those who go into it as a default, and in fact most students/contemporaries I've known in this position didn't do it for long. The only group of successful 'default' teachers I know are a lot of musicians/actors who teach part time and are often very good - partly I suppose because they love the subject, and partly I think because they are naturally performative and enjoy the performance aspect of teaching, which otherwise tends to be underestimated I think.

On the other hand, I know several brilliant teachers who have moved into secondary school teaching from university teaching a bit later on - because being a gifted and dedicated teacher sadly isn't the main priority in university jobs.

I have also had people ask me why on earth I want to teach when if I get a good maths degree I could get a "better job" erm... because teaching is what I want to do! I know I'll never get rich doing it (although I'd possibly aim for being a head teacher in the distant future) but I feel it's what I'm meant to do with my life if that doesn't sound too sickly!

I find it really depressing how little respect teachers get here. I've heard that in some countries it is quite the opposite.

I'll admit that teaching was a fall-back for me - good degree from Russell group uni, but thanks to disastrous choice in men, moved back to small town where graduate jobs don't appear to exist.

I always rejected teaching because I wanted an exciting, non 9-5 job where I could express myself through my clothes, piercings and hair (cringe into tiny, tiny ball).

That was 9 years ago.

I started teaching, grew up and discovered that a. I love it and b. I don't appear to be too bad at it.

Good for you Freudian! But it is relatively unusual I agree - on the whole it is not seen as a high-status profession for top graduates, and the skills involved in being an excellent teacher are oddly undervalued when compared with similar skills in another context (e.g. most business people recognise how rare and precious it is to have a colleague who combines good command of a topic with being genuinely excellent at public speaking and presentations; and we are happy to admire people who are able to improvise under pressure in other contexts - for instance as TV or radio presenters or as actors).

V. honest of you Astronaut! I think loads of new graduates are the same. It's just a shame that for most of them circumstances don't lead them to try teaching and instead they start out with arty, self-expression aspirations and end up working for a big company along with most of their contemporaries - lots of them enjoy that of course, but it's a shame that teaching isn't higher up the list of options.

One of the problems older, experienced teachers face is the pressure and judgements by others within the profession and outside.
You wouldn't expect a professional architect, doctor, builder, lawyer etc to be told on a regular basis that their methods and skills are irrelevant and incorrect on a regular basis, to be taken back to the metaphorical drawing board constantly and told to start all over again.
Not to build on what went before, but to tear everything down every few years and begin again.
But that's what continuously happens to teachers year on year. So you often have a confused, distressed and overwhelmed workforce who feel belittled and patronised and worthless.

Sorry OP, maybe I've missed a detail or two, but isn't it a good thing that the team of teachers (presumably in a year group or such like) have organised themselves according to their strengths? Your childs teacher may just not feel strong enough in maths to stretch your son to his best ability, but could be taking the top group for humanities? obviously, you may know far more specifics, but really, if your son has the most appropriate teacher for him then surely that's a good thing?

I think maths teaching for the more able children in the last couple of years of primary can be a problem - by that stage quite a few are ready to move on to more complex ideas but teachers who took maths GCSE ten or twenty years earlier may not have the concepts at their fingertips any more.

Did anyone else see the C4 documentary earlier this year about maths teaching in yr6, focusing on a school in Bristol? I think it was called Kids Don't Count, and looked at why so many children struggle with maths. One thing they did was give several hundred primary school teachers a test designed for 10/11 year olds and a staggering number of them failed - I can't remember if it was a majority, but a very high proportion. And these were the people who are meant to be teaching the concepts - they should all be getting 100 per cent....

I really think there is a case for specialist maths teachers in yr 5/6 - not just for the most able, for everyone.

There was much dispute at the time as to whether those questions were designed for 10/11 year olds - at least 2 questions were found to be on the curriculum for level 7. So some sensationalist drivel in there, I'm afraid, as well as some real concerns.

Well, I'm doing GCSE maths with my son at the moment, so I reckon I'm all right Jack.
Why not specialist teachers for all core subjects in KS2? Including PE and IT?

Our primary has had a series of new teachers in recent years that need the most basic maths concepts explained to them. I have had to have repeated words with one whose class I support a small group in. Last week I asked her to check resources before use, but she admitted she couldn't identify the errors I mentioned. I drives me wild because I'm constantly telling kids 'the sheet's wrong, ignore it' which doesn't help when dealing with SEN!

Hi Cleo

I think the point is that I believe that all primary school teachers should be able to keep up with bright students up to the age of 11 - so whilst they may not be able to help specialist help to a child who is doing a GCSE at primary level - reasonably bright children should be educated in a system where they can rely on what their teachers tell them.

My issue is with teachers who don't know that they don't know - not those who say "Good question. Let me find out"

In our specific case this is a reactive move-around of a small group of students to a more capable teacher for one element of the curriculum and not a proactive school lead one. So no I'm not particularly impressed by it.

I have found the discussion it's promoted very interesting though

Are you certain that the reason they are using another teacher is because she is 'not good at Maths', rather than the school playing to people's strengths, activate?

I have taught different classes Literacy as well as my own when our Head chooses to use me in this way - but it isn't because the other class teachers aren't any good at teaching English.

I cant actually see what the problem is. Your child is being taught maths by a good teacher.

DS2 is also taken out of his class for maths to be taught by a different teacher because he is in the extended maths group As I understand it, the group are working at least a year ahead of their peers.
It is a win win situation as the rest of the class are taught at their level and DS and the others are taught at theirs.

I would also be pleased that your DC is getting a good maths teacher. Are you sure that it isn't just a case of putting your DC in with a class of similar ability?
A primary teacher does need to be confident. I am a supply teacher and constantly get in a position where I take a maths class with no time to look at it first. I would find it terrifying if I wasn't sure that I could tackle anything and be ahead of the brightest yr 6 pupil (and some of them are very clever). If a spare moment I play Countdown on line with them and they love it and can beat the 30secs.

My "problem" and the point of this thread is that all primary teachers should, in my opinion, be able to stay ahead of bright primary students in the core subjects. I am not talking about kids who are pulling a level 8 or are GCSE standard, just bright kids working a couple of years ahead of curriculum.

He, and a small group of his peers, were taken out last week (quite a way into term) due to parental concerns and children complaining of being bored.

It is not that the new teacher is better (which she is) it is that the previous teacher was unable to keep up / explain or teach him at a suitable level, she found it difficult to provide extension work and to work to the every child matters.

They should be able to keep ahead of the brightest mathematicians in yr6, activate, no question. (this is even if they are teaching a younger age group).

I helped my dd do her maths homework and she came back and said she got half of them wrong. I was not impressed as I am a maths genius but until I can see her homework sheet I can't do anything about it. Might have a word with her teacher actually tomorrow. Would it be out of order to ask to take a look at it?

Ask for the sheet back so that you can support your daughter appropriately and see where the problems are.
I don't see how you being a maths genius has an effect on your DD's homework, what year is she in?

she helped her with the homework