Backchat and rudeness

[marl]

Not sure if this should really go in G&T or just general parenting really but would really value some input from any parents managing this one. I have a 9 year old boy, academically bright and very eloquent, which combines to make him very able to argue the toss; I find this very wearing. (He's a lot like 'Dante' who was on the programme a couple of years ago following some children who were bright if any of you saw that.) Answering back and 'but' for much of what we at home say has generally the case. I have always adopted quite a hard line and am quite a strict parent I guess. But this seems to be escalating at the moment - it is like having a sulky teenager in the house much of the time. He is raising his voice to me but much of his rudeness is in tone. I'm finding this very difficult to grab hold of and improve. Any tips? In some senses if he was sent to his room every time his tone was indignant and unpleasant it would be so many time a day things would get ridiculous. It also of course ADDS to his indignance of how tedious and unfair everything that aduts say is. Tone is such a delicate thing I find it hard to point out to him WHY he is being rude - though he seems not to do this with adults in public eg school. He has two young siblings so I'm also concerned about them copying this and it becoming part of the way we all communicate. Any help very gratefully received.

Thanks. Yes, I can see that working. I probably do it occasionally but I should try the 'carry on what I'm doing' approach more. It's less easy if I'm actually trying to 'tell him off' about somethng else I guess but will try it more during part of nomal conversation etc.

I do know exactly what you mean marl. It is when they start to negotiate with you and they come up with scarily good arguments against what you say(so that in a weaker moment you begin to be swayed a bit). I think the only answer is what pixie says - your way or no way, or you start to loose parental control.

I have a ds of the same age who is doing exactly the same thing, only difference being that he is of average to low adacemic ability - doesn't mean he can't talk the hind leg off a donkey though.In fact, I have been wondering if he isn't made worse by the fact that he can never shine at school. Tone is a definite problem, together with a know-it-all attitude and an complete inability to let a subject drop. Not just rebelling against authority but questioning everything I and dh say or know. Can't wait for the hormones to settle or whatever.

Yep Cory. Just worried that in fact it is early teenage hormones that will escalate from this point for the next 5 years...DS has always been a kid 'going on 40' unfortunately. He'll probably fit his skin much more easily once he's an adult. Doesn't help that I'm a 'know it all 'myself in some ways, so some of the tone might be 'caught'; but it's more OK for adults talking to children than vice versa of course. I just can't accept being spoken to like this in my own home; I get a lot more respect at work!

Do you think there is a chance secondary will civilise them, Marl? Or that an early onset of hormones will mean an early settling down?

Hmm, working in that area myself I think if we've maintained the rules at home then they know how to be civilised to people who have some role of authority by secondary age... but not sure that they see the advantage of doing so at home. For some reason I can scare six foot boys into submission but not small ones. Like you I can only hope early onset means an early settling down, but still need to find some way of keeping it in check now before it just becomes the norm in terns of 'how you speak to your mum and stepdad'.

That sounds about right: ds seems to be able to be perfectly civil to other people as long as I am not there. Though a perfect misery to take around to Open Evenings: not that he does or says anything actively rude, he just stands around looking miserable. And when kind teachers ask if he enjoys their subject, he tells them the truth...

My DS 9yrs who is very similar to your description. He was born sensible, has always been very eloquent and verbose but from the age of four, liked a good argument! We left out the terrible two's and went straight into "Mummy that is unreasonable, no why should I, give me a good reason" at four. It?s very vexing at times, not to mention tiring.

I was advised by NAGC that many bright children (not just average brightness) need to have acknowledgement of the fact that they can reason and think at a level beyond your expectations.

I disagree with my husband but he doesn't send me to my room! What can a bright child learn from this sort of punishment, very little?

I found that arbitory punishment didn't work any better than raising my voice and being drawn in. I work hard at trying to make DS see that disagrement is fine as long as you are respectful of others. We will listen to him as long as he speaks with respect to us as individuals, he can expect the same in return.

My ds is probably slightly different in that his frustration does not arise from a sense of academic superiority (possibly the opposite- dd and I are very academic and he makes it clear that he resents this).

He was a totally easy-going toddler, always the family peace-maker: the argumentative phase only started last year. Possibly hormones, possibly the anger of being diagnosed with painful and potentially crippling condition. Also well developed sense of inferiority because of struggling at school (not desperately, just not as clever as some of his friends).

Also a certain feeling of social injustice: being well educated and interested in learning to him = posh, posh = unfair advantages/trying to be better than other people, therefore something to be ashamed of. As if I could solve all the ills of the world by sitting down to watch Jeremy Clarkson instead of reading a book.

Tbh I am not even sure he wants us to treat us with respect atm: I think what he really wants is for us to be in the wrong and confirm his idea that this is a rotten world. It has got to the stage where I dare not encourage anything I know he might like (have been thinking of subscribing to a daily paper), because if he thinks we want to encourage it, he will stop taking an interest. He stopped drawing, because I happened to mention that he is quite good at it and that his teacher thinks so too.

Have no problem with my bright child: I just have the same kind of discussions with her as with my academic colleagues and have done for a long time. It's the one with a chip on his shoulder I can't handle.

Sorry for hi-jack.

Corry, your having a tough time, I don't think I could cope or know what to do. Poor chap, is he always in pain?

I am relieved to get the tone and attitude though, a friends son went nearly mute at 9/10 yrs, just grunted and nodded. I don't think it's a very nice age for boys.

Cory, sorry to hear that too, but an interesting one this...my son too has been very ill for years and was going to Great Ormond Street for several years...though by age 6.5 his illness was under good control by medication. Interestingly now it is under control he has mentioned that he actually rather misses the attention that gained. Being ill I think often makes children 'older than their years' from having to manage it and spend time discussing things with medical adults. He was in discomfort for many years, though not in any way crippled..so I wouldn't want to belittle anything your son is reacting to. Not sure that that gives any conclusion or help but it's certainly something else bubbling away in the explosive cauldron!

Thanks Minimouse. On my better days I manage to reason and remind him to respect, and on my less good ones...like this morning...sometimes I just need to remove him from the situation before we all get tied up in his endless arguing and he can calm down. But it's a good memory jogger to address it as you suggest - I agree it's better, but takes some energy.

thanks for supportive messages from both of you; it is relief to feel one is not alone

ds is not in pain at all times, minimaths, it's just that it's very unpredictable so it's living on a minefield, also that the only thing he cares about (football) is something he can't always do and clearly can't go very far in

but I take comfort from the thought that some of it at least may be due to hormones

Agree this is nothing whatsever to do with being bright.

I think you need to get out of the groove of nagging. Grit your teeth for a few days, try short positive praise whenever you can find any reason for it, then see how things are. Your relationship needs to change, and the child won't be the one to change it.

you are addressing my ds here, Acanthus? I can assure you it's not me doing the nagging

Sorry cory When I said "nagging" I suppose I was using that as a quick shorthand for having a relationship with a DC that is difficult and often therefore the adult begins to sound very negative to the child, maybe without realising it. I have no idea whether you do this or not. My point really was that if a dynamic between an adult and a child needs to change then the adult will gnerally need to change their behaviour in order to get different behaviour from the child. I don't believe such change often comes from the child.

I thought I'd just let you all know DS has managed almost 24 hrs without being sarcastic . How about yours?

Cory it must be very difficult for your DS if his real passion is a sport that he can't persue to the level he would like. Does he like watching football(not my thing so I can't really think of anything very constructive!) what about looking ahead at careers in sport like physio, would that inspire him.

I had lots of joint pain as a child and very unstable knee joints and it ruined my chances of playing tennis at a higher level. So I really do sympathise. I am double jointed and my mother was told to stop me taking part in high impact sports, ballet and gymnastics. A policy she imposed very well Luckily for me, by the time I reached 31 I was fine, it was like turning a light switch.

Weeeeellllll I reckon that there can be a relationship between being bright and talking back... brighter kids tend to be more articulate. Friend who has 7 DC says that No. 3 who does best out of the lot academically is also the most moaning and argumentative.

Anyway, I felt better after I watched Gareth Malone's School for Boys and he worked so hard to improve the boys' speaking skills by encouraging them to debate; when DC argue with me I now remind myself that they are honing their literacy skills! :)

Also, my middle DS (yr2) is a poor speaker (I have no idea what his academic ability is); he gets very confused lots because of his poor speech skills. He doesn't really understand things he's told and he can't express himself well, so then ends up exploding... I'd rather he were a lot more argumentative in speech rather than action, like his older brother.

One thing important is that you don't engage with them when something is truly non-negotiable; I try to let most things be negotiable (if I want DC to be flexible, I need to show them that I am flexible, too). But if something is completely non-negotiable, don't even discuss it. Just the very briefest "NO" and move the conversation on.

minimaths- thanks for sympathy, ds is double jointed too

unfortunately, watching football is all he does want to do - that and watching Jeremy Clarkson; if I let him he would spend every minute he cannot kick a ball slumped in front of the telly

dd has worked round her double-jointedness and found other outlets for her interests (drama instead of ballet), but he doesn't seem to be very flexible

ragged my own experience (own childhood, dcs and extended family) is slightly different: ime the clever child gets the argumentative stage over very early in life, because by the time they get to the pre-teen stage they are clever enough to ensure that they get treated like an adult and that people want to hear their opinion. They are the ones that are able to see an argument from all sides and understand when they can't win. It's the less clever ones with a chip on their shoulder that seem to retain the need to argue about everything. Dd and I both argued furiously around the age of 2.

Ok ds2 is bit older at 13 but is bright and can argue the toss

Sone of the things i use if he starts on with his tone I will tell him while he has that attitude I'm not going to listern to him and I don't

I do make point of doing things just with him that other dc don't like or not intrested in and always a good reminder of just how pleasent ge really is.We did tower of London and he really enjoyed it doing it properly so did I

Even now at 13 sometimes I do have to remind him right now I am the adult so whilst acknowleding that sometimes it's not fair but end of day life is not always fair and basically ge is going to have to deal with it and if he wishes to whinge I tell him to go upstairs and do it

and occasional if he wants to do something and I said no and sometimes we do automatically as adults without thinking .If he calmy explain why and justify it without arguing I have been known to rethink my stance or we try discuss from other peoples point of view

.But only if done in calm manner if rants that no

becomes a NO in captials .

And on the whole now at 13 can say ds is becoming a lovely young man whose company I enjoy

So teaches them about respecting others it