not sure about this!!!

[cherrymonster]

dd1 has recently been assessed by the ed psych as she has been having major problems settling in to school. she started reception last september, and has now gone into year 1. her assessment has put her at a level 8 for reading, writing and numeracy, which i am told is the level she should be achieving at the end of year 3. apparently at the end of foundation stage (nursery to reception class) she should be achieving level 2 in these subjects. is she G&T or is she just a clever girl? (she is very close to academically overtaking her 9 year old brother who has HFA and dyspraxia, but i need to know if her problems with school stem from her being too bright iyswim)

She's probably pretty bright, I couldn't comment on G+T or not because only you know how much you've taught her and how much she's figured out herself.

BUT - There's no reason a bright child can't get on with the rest of the class - I'd look at that and what you can do, not blame it on 'she's too bright poor darling'. There are a couple of really bright kids in my sons class - and they all get on well.

That doesn't answer what it is for your DD though.....

ime being bright does not cause problems in itself

extremely bright children who are also socially and emotionally mature are usually fine

what does often cause problems is being an early developer academically but a late developer socially and emotionally

so it's not so much the brightness as the discrepancy between different areas of development that cause the problems iyswim

otoh from what I have seen, children who are not bright but are late in their social development find it just as difficult to cope

she is definitely an early developer academically,but late emotionally and socially. her speech and understanding are incredible, the ed psych commented on her report that talking to dd1 was like talking to a very articulate and aware adult (she is five and a half), but her social skills are lacking somewhat, she doesnt play with other children much, she doesnt like going outside to run around at lunchtime, she prefers to sit inside and do work or play board games, but she is totally computer literate, can research her own projects, read almost anything thats put in front of her and will hold a conversation better than many adults. she is also very very fond of getting her own way, and will frequently lash out if told to do something she doesnt want to do. i think she might have ODD.

If you think she has serious problems that need support at school and she is not likely to grow out of, I would ask for help.

Detail the problems she is having and don't let them put it down to her just being "too bright"- that is a good way of being fobbed off. Her problems from what you say seem to be related to social situations- so even if the school did manage to provide teaching to her exact level, that would still leave her playground problems unsolved.

So I would first ask myself: is this a serious problem? Is she unhappy? Does she make other children unhappy?

Have a chat with the teacher.

Secondly: is there anything I can do to help her acquire social skills? There are books with social scenarios that help children understand how other people react. The SN forum is good here.

Thirdly: does this need outward intervention?

Again, have a chat with the teacher.

i dont think i mean that her problems are because she is too bright, i meant that her problems might stem from being bored because the work doesnt challenge her enough. she has had quite a few problems, her dad has messed her around chronically, and she is very unstable at the best of times. she has a penchant for making stupid noises at the top of her voice. she doesnt seem unhappy, and is a lot better behaved at home than at school, but even at home can still be a moody and obnoxious little so and so, it just isnt as regular at home as it is at school. she doesnt like being told what to do, and can be very manipulative, but is an extremely loving little girl, always wanting cuddles and telling me that she loves me, and is similar at school. if she has been naughty then i will ignore the lovingness (?) until she has apologised and then cuddle her. i dont know about the reading age bit, i was just told that she got level 8 on the subjects i mentioned, and that foundation stage was measured slightly differently to ks1.

Your dd sounds like an identikit of mine at that age.

She is g&T for literacy and maths although I personally feel that she is very bright as opposed to truly gifted.

She was very stroppy at that age, mostly cross because she got impatient with her peers not wanting to play at her level if you see what I mean.
V hard to explain without sounding like a precious mummy....

The school worked closely with her on behaviour and we implemented the same rules at home with reward chart etc.

She is in yr 6 now and is a very happy friendly and settled young lady.

She too had issues with a father not being what he should so the emotional issues were contributing.

It helped us to treat her brightness and her behavioural traits as two separate issues, we were advised the same as others are saying here, that her level of intelligence is not necessarily correlated to the undesirable behaviours she displayed.

Re the noises, is that something she is copying from her brother?

her behaviour in class is the main problem- she has been violent towards teachers, and managed to abscond from school once because she wasnt being watched closely enough. she is considered a flight risk now, and has constant supervision. she doesnt have too many problems playing with other children, she just seems to prefer not to. she has had lots of interaction with children her own age during 2 years at nursery, and also, being the 3rd out of 4 children at home, plays with children both older and younger (she has 2 older brothers and a younger sister). yes EYFS is the scale i was talking about, i couldnt remember what it was called. will go onto primary education to find out. she has fabulous social skills when mixing with adults (except when she is in a strop) its just with other kids, it seems that she just doesnt know what to make of them iyswim?

Hi, you mention that talking to your daughter is like talking to a very aware and articulate adult. You also mention that she tries to avoid interaction with her peers, prefering adult company.

I wanted to focus on this, I have a son, who when young presented in a very similar way. Although he doesn't strop and is never violent. He is now 9.

Being bright doesn't cause social problems in itself, but for some children who are functioning cognitively well above their peers it can cause problems in socialising. Not through lack of social skills. A child may have excellent social skills, understanding how to behave in any given situation, for some bright children this means they prefer adult company. They may be confused, frustrated and bored by interaction with their peer group. I think this is perhaps more common with girls.

Emotionally, you mention that she likes to get her own way and that she reacts very strongly. I had this between 4 years and 6 yrs with my son. I eventually caught on, if you could ask him, he would say thank god I did. He argued with me from age 4, like a fairly well reasoned teenager! I spoke to NAGT who suggested that as he was both intellectually and conginitively very advanced he needed this acknowledged and needed to be treated very much as an equal. Albeit one with less life experience.

Talk to your daughter, how do her peers make her feel? How do her interaction with teachers and other adults make her feel? Does she want time to express her opinions and be listened to?

The NAGT are very helpful, they offer excellent advice and its fairly well established that some bright kids have social difficulties.

Cherrymonster - I would say that a score of 8 in the EYFS profile is good but not exceptional. Typically, I'd expect a child who was G&T to secure 9s (and to be working well over and above what is required to get a 9!), but of course, there will always be exceptions and some children don't show their true ability until later on. I don't quite understand the reference to a level 8 being equivalent to what is expected at the end of year 3 - I think most year 3 children would be achieving at a much higher level than this tbh.

Have you asked her why she ran away from school, why she is violent towards the teachers? Has she given any reason for this behaviour?

Don't some schools fudge the EYFS profile scores so as to look like they add more value later on?

But sadly not all schools are good. I'd like to hope they don't do it but the cynical side of me wonders.

Not a single kid in ds' class seems to have got a 9 according to the grapevine. Not even the ones who were reading at year 2 level. That strikes me as odd and make me suspicious!

there were no 9's in dd1's class either. iwas told by the SENCO that she was the only child to get an 8 in more than one area.

Isn't it something to do with the fact that children are supposed to demonstrate skills spontaneously through their own activities and play, rather than doing it when asked by a teacher? Always struck me as a bit hit and miss tbh...

That is correct Magicmummy. For those who think schools are keeping EYFS scores down to make the value-added look good, remember that the scores are teacher-assesed and ask yourself why a reception teacher would want to make him or herself look less effective in order to boost a Year 2 or 6 colleague?

But why wouldn't children allegedly reading at year 2 level be given a 9??

Because in class when being assessed by the teacher she has only shown evidence of achieving a level 8. Teachers need to be able to back up their assessments with evidence. They will be externally moderated from time to time. They don't just make it up.

Teacher can only mark down what they actually observe at the time, and IIRR, the independent and spontanaity aspect play a huge part inthe higher levels. The teacher can't engineer a way of getting the child to sjow the skills; the child has to do it on their own as part of their play.