Implications of not vaccinating?

[Devvers]

Hi everyone, I have a beautiful seven week old baby boy and am soon to be contacted by our GP to organise an appointment for his 8 week vaccinations. I am really concerned about some of the articles and reports I have read about the potential side affects of some of the vaccines and am therefore trying to do some more research into whether, he should a) have them all at all and b) have them at 8 weeks or delay until we feel he is a bit more robust.

I would be interested to know if anyone was successful in delaying the normal programme but still being able to get their child vaccinated on the NHS but just on a later timetable and also whether anyone has made the decision to not vaccinate their child but then contracted one of the illnesses.

Its such a difficult decision, you feel like your dammed if you do and dammed if you don't!

Would really appreciate any advice/experiences.

Thanks very much.

I made the very difficult decision not to vax my 14 week old ds due to a number of reasons:

he is ebf which i feel offers some protection

he has ecxzema (i can never spell it) and i am concerned that dtap will make it worse.

I am concerned about the things they add to vax i.e formaldehyde, aluminium etc and the way the vax are cultured.

I had measles, mumps and chicken pox as a child and they were considered par for course of being a kid. Now they are 'dangerous'. I am as fit as a fiddle

I had seizures following my first vax, my mother then decided not to give me any more.

Whenever i raised concerns with practice nurse, hv or gp, they were never able to answer my questions and denied that vax cause any problems other than irritability and possibly persistent crying in the hours after the vax. I personally believe that a
healthy diet, fresh air, exercise, love and care will boost a childs immune system which will make them more able to fight off and recover from childhood illnesses.

just my opinion.

It's worth remembering that the reason the incidence of those diseases is so low is due to vaccine programmes.

Complacency on this issue is a bad idea.

And surely a better measure is risk vs harm.

We don't give children aspirin due the risk of Reyes Syndrome which had an incidence of about 1 in a million.

Small risk but no benefit over other analgesics which are safer for kids.

Vaccines are very safe and the small risk of adverse reactions is much lower than the risk of catching and being injured by the diseases they can protect against.

The incidence of those diseases is so low because of vaccine use.
Your reason for not having the injection seems to be that the injection works so well.

Vaccination is such a safe and effective health intervention it's hard to believe that anyone would choose not to have their children innoculated.

Aghh I thought it had eaten my post so did another, slightly different one.
Apologies.

Hi everyone, thanks for all your messages with advice and opinions, it really is a minefield! It sounds like it shouldn't be too much of a problem to delay the jabs for the moment until we have fully decided what to do anyway.

Thanks again!

If I knew 20 years ago what I know today about what goes into vaccines no way would I have let my DD have any, I have now exposed my DD to vCJD through vaccines. All vaccines should come with a list of ingredients so that the parent can make an informed choice, for instance did you know that human and bovine serum is used in the manufacturer of many vaccines and that the humam serum is not tested for vCJD, the calf if under 48 months is not tested for BSE either. Of course vaccinations are essential for preventing certain illnesses and we should have every faith that they are safe, so why do they not screen the ingredients for vCJD when vaccines are being manufactured?

The breast milk won't protect if the mother didn't have the disease beforehand.
Whooping cough/meningitis are the one which are worrying for small babies (whooping cough is not rare) the other one could probably be delayed but they are always done together.
If your child has severe eczema/allergies he could have vaccinations without any additive.

vaccines without additives? Can you clarify that please? All vaccines have additives - preservatives etc so I'm not sure what you mean by this at all.

The night before DS3 was to have his injections I was thinking 'poor boy, he's got to have his injections tomorrow' then I thought 'what do I mean poor boy? He's a lucky boy - there are many children in the world who will die because they don't get offered the vacinations' Whenever you do decide to have the vacinations I would try not to worry about it too much. I've always found it to be a relatively painless process, often with the baby not even crying during the injection. The nurses are usually very nice and calm and happy to answer any questions. All three of my children have had all their vacinations and we've never had any problems. I did delay the MMR in DS1 by a month as he was unwell when he should have had it.

Beaaware - Lists of ingredients for vaccines are readily available - I got them from the GP practice where my DS had his jabs. For almost all vaccines, the relevant micro-organism has to be grown as part of the production process, and so needs certain things as part of that process (eg viruses only grow in living cells) But that doesn't mean those substances are in the vaccine.

There is some evidence that a slight delay in the timing of the DTaP vaccinations makes it less likely that your child will develop asthma -- see Delay in diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus vaccination is associated with a reduced risk of childhood asthma
Kara L. McDonald, Shamima I. Huq, Lisa M. Lix, Allan B. Becker, Anita L. Kozyrskyj
The Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology - March 2008 (Vol. 121, Issue 3, Pages 626-631, DOI: 10.1016/j.jaci.2007.11.034)

DD had her early vaccinations at 4, 6 and 8 months rather than at 2, 3 and 4 months (initially because of an administrative cock-up, rather than as a deliberate decision on my part, but then this study came out at the same time and made me feel it may have been the best plan -- and I may do the same with DC3 deliberately).

It's easy to say "The NHS recommended vaccine schedule is effective and should be followed. Anything else increases the risks to your child" but plenty of other European countries have a different schedule - perhaps those are effective and should be followed and anything else (e.g. the NHS recommended vaccine schedule) will increase the risk to my child? After all, they can't all be the best possible schedule...

Across Scandinavia, where maternity leave provisions are much better so there is no concern about getting babies in to be vaccinated while the mother is still on maternity leave (which I think does play a big part in the recommended UK schedules, and not unreasonably so -- as a public health measure that's something that does need to be factored in) the DTaP vaccines are given later and spaced more widely than in the UK. So if I know that I'm going to remember to take my child for vaccination even if I miss the 2/3/4 month slots then I do not consider that I'm putting anyone at increased overall risk.

Devvers, you might find it interesting to check out the vaccination schedules by country available on EUVAC. It shows some alternative schedules that have been endorsed by various European national health authorities.

Butterfly I am not sure how you can have 5 lots of tetanus jab then " be ok for life" even contracting this disease does not offer life long immunity.

This is the reason the Pneumococcal vaccine is so so important.

My niece

Im sure alot of the other jabs could safely be put off for a while, I would definately look into the meningitis jabs first.

maxybrown - it is not recommended that you ever have more than 5 tetanus jabs.

I was bitten by a dog (fairly badly - deep puncture wound) recently, and due to having had my max number of tetanus jabs (accident prone child, plus lots of travel abroad) the doctors attending preferred to wait and see how htings developed rather than give tetanus straight away, due to side effects etc.

there has been no data gathered on accumulative tetanus jabs, I believe, and the manufacturers advice (based on worsening side effects with each jab given)_ is to not exceed 5.

I guess in a serious situation (thankfully the dog that bit me was obviously a clean dog ) they would weigh up the decision.

Maybe not, though however many they rec, it won't give you immunity!!! That was my only point

no, agreed, no immunity.

but I have also been told "oh, you've had more than 5? well, you're fine for life then" by various nurses over the years

Izzybiz, that's very sad. How awful for your family.

I have never known of any child to have any type of adverse reaction to a vaccination other than a bit of grumpiness for a day or two.

Rather than researching potential side affects of vaccinations how about you research consequences of the illnesses they would protect from? There is a reason that these vaccs are offered free of charge to every child. It is too protect both them and the wider community. Personally I consider myself very fortunate to live in a country where vaccs are available. I also feel that complacency has set in re seriousness of these illnesses precisely because the vacc programme has been such a success....

Having said that - your baby, your choice.

silverfrog, I wonder do they mean fine for life in the sense of not getting another tetanus jab rather than fine for life in the sense of being immune for life. If that makes sense! :)

I guess I kind of reassured myself about tetanus by looking at the actual incidence of the disease. There are about 8-10 cases a year and v few deaths, usually in the elderly. The last case of tetanus in an under 15 iirc was in 2000/2001 and the girl had been fully vaccinated. (she survived) I just can't believe that the entire population keeps up to date with their jabs and that's why the incidence is low. I really do believe it has more to do with wound hygeine and early treatment of serious wounds etc.

I also remember my Grandad telling us stories about growing up in the 1920s and running around all over the farm etc and they certainly weren't all worrying about catching tetanus! It would have been even worse back then with no antibiotics to treat it. I really do think we live in a culture of fear and we need to feel like we are doing something to prevent the worst from happening.

Actually MollyChambers that is exactly what I did when I was making my decision. How did you make yours?Even the nhs and hpa websites describe some of diseases as mild and self limiting.

Based on your argument, I don't know anyone ( and neither do my parents)who has suffered complications from the childhood diseases that we vaccinate against. That's not to say that there aren't children who have but similarly just because you don't know anyone who has had a reaction to a vaccine doesn't mean that they never happen.

I don't fall for the 'greater good of society' argument either. There have been outbreaks of disease where there has been nearly 100% vaccination rate so I think the artificial herd immunity ( ie. Through vaccination) may not actually work. In any case, % vaccination rate does not allow for all the adults whose immunity has worn off and who could now be spreading the disease. Yet conveniently the unvaxed child becomes the scapegoat, not the 40 yo man sitting next to you on the bus that hasn't had a vaccine in the last 30 years

thesecond

I can quite understand your reaction.

But please do give credit that for some of us vaccinataion could not be a choice even if herd immunity was next to nothing.

I don't avoid vaccination because I can. I avoid vaccination because my childrens immune systems can't tolerate it. And I have my own damaged child on my profile to evidence that.
I don't see it as a luxury. It is consistently one of the upsetting and challenging aspects of my life.

Actually no thesecondcoming my decision has absolutely nothing to do with yours.

and secondcoming, if we were F*ed then surely so would you be? To believe people who make these difficult choices do so because others vaccinate is ridiculous. I have made NONE of my decisions based on the decisions other people have made for their children. I also armed myself with the info on the diseases FIRST before the jab info. Alongside taking my childs personal health situation into consideration, obviously.

Some people genuinely have religious reasons they do not vaccinate either - due to how they are made and content.

Tetanus is widely misunderstood anyhow. People think they cut themselves on the bread knife, then they will develop Tetanus FROM the bread knife etc....

DS had his finger ripped open last year whilst on holiday. He had to have it glued, and the staff nearly passed out when they discovered he had no jabs. We were asked to wait for a long time while they tried to get someone to come and talk to us. She didn't give us chance to explain what we had already gone through....turns out the paed had better things to do anyway and the blushing nurse came back to tell us that was fine we could go!