Vaccinations...

[perfectishmum]

Firstly I'd just like to say that I am a GP (with five children, one on the way!) and DH is a paediatric nurse have read alot of anti-vaccination view on this forum, just had to throw my two cents in!
Firstly health care professionals are not out to make a profit off vaccinations, we would have a perfectly good living without them.
Secondly ANY link between the MMR vaccine and autism has been completely disproven and Wakefield has been struck off (as of last week).
Finally anaphylaxis can be promptly treated provided you stay in the surgery/hospital for the recommended time following the jabs (the same thing can't be said for peanuts, which can cause the same reaction!)

All of my children have been vaccinated and the next will be too. Vaccinations protect against horrible illnesses and may it be noted that the risk of seizures with measles is far higher than that of any vaccination.

Um, thanks for that. However, since I am an intelligent adult, and I'd like to think a responsible parent, I shall continue to research the subject myself in order to make an informed decision for my children. This is no more nor less than I would do for any medication or non-emergency medical intervention, for myself or my children. I'm not a big fan of blind trust. Informed consent and all that jazz

I've been reading around this subject for over a year now and I've only scratched the surface. As far as I'm concerned, everything you've posted there is so simplistic as to be virtually meaningless. But cheers, I needed a laugh.

Ditto what Jazz and Riven have said.
I remember the gov't telling us that we couldn't catch BSE from eating infected beef.
I was sceptical then and am now a complete cynic.
We must all make up our own minds having done as much research as possible. This isn't like when I was a child and parents didn't have access to the internet.

Your post was rather high and mighty - and exactly what helps put people off anyway. You are basically saying look just do as we say all will be fine.

But thanks for the patronizing pat on the head.....

And you used Firstly twice in your little statement.

Perfectishmum I would be really interested in your opinion on the 'new' drug which is currently being studied and fast tracked by the FDA to treat children with autism by the use of digestive enzymes? The enzymes are to help the children digest protein as it would seem that many of them have an impaired ability to do so. It would seem that mainstream medecine has known for years that autistic children have gut problems (or so they claim now).

This is exactly what Dr Wakefield has been saying for years. Indeed he makes reference to this in the 1998 Lancet report.

Are you comfortable with the fact that parents have been ridiculed for their use of casein free/gluten free diets and digestive enzymes and the doctor who first raised public attention of this issue 12 years ago has been struck off when it would appear that they were right on this all along?

I'm not.

I'm sure as a GP who appears sure they know lots about this you are familiar with this new drug. If you are not however let me know and I will provide you with a link.

I'd like a link, Beachcomber .

here you go,

abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/health&id=7353260

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00881452?term=NCT00881452&rank=1

abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/health&id=7353198

I had my children immunised in good faith during the 1990's believing that they were safe, little did I know that I was being serioulsy mis-lead by the DOH and our government. Some of the vaccinations I agreed to were wihtdrawn due to the fear of BSE infected material used in the manufacturer of the BCG and Polio vaccines, I have no idea what other vaccinations that my children had during this time contained bovine contaminted BSE serum, but what I do know is that the BCG vaccine was withdrawn without explanation and the polio drops suspected of being contaminated with BSE were not withdrawn until 2000 instead of 1996. I have absolutely no faith in the vaccines that we give to our children all because of BSE. Until our government gets to grip with this cruel man-made infection and tests ALL cows for BSE I will not put my children at further risk. To think how many poor children have now been exposed to potentially BSE contaminated vaccines during the 1980's-90's is outrageous, when our government knew that BSE crossed the species barrier as early as 1985 every vaccine containing bovine material should have been withdrawn immediately. I am convinced that many young people in their early twenties who are suffering or have died from vCJD were given contaminated vaccines, it is a known fact that clusters of vCJD victims were given vaccines from the same batch. Try getting hold of the batch numbers, impossible! I wonder why?

Gosh how helpful..
Time was you had to make an appointment with a Health professional to get patronised. Now they do home visits via mumsnet.

OP. My perfectly healthy 18 month old DS2 was given the MMR, stopped talking, babbling, potty trainning and developed many complicated food and gut issues as well as violent tantrums and OCD type behaviours.
When I removed gluten and dairy - in line with Wakefields hypothosis, his ASD behaviours diminished.

Talk me through exactly what you think happened, would you?

I would like to send a documentary title what is very related to this subject.
freedocumentaries.org/teatro.php?filmID=331&lan=en&size=big
called vaccination nation.
In there it will be explained that the cause of autism is due to the high mercury level in MMR vaccination.
The measles and rubella is good to have but the mumphs i think it is not a big deal not to have it.
My daughter still has not received her MMR and she is two maybe it is irresponsible but my research shows -do not rust medicals always!
And hey my mum has gone through all the three and she is healthy so why is this fuss.
Of course the answer is -if we would refuse it medical company would lose billions of pounds!!!

My answer to you you are just a GP. Sorry to say that. My mum is further down to you and i know how much percent she gets if she offers different kind of medicines. Especially Glaxo-smith.

virag

MMR does not contain mercury. Never has....

I have not given DD any vaccinations.

But I declined having received accurate info from good sources and with the agreement of my GP who is a sweetie. Not on the basis of inaccurate info that MMR contains mercury

Andrew Wakefield was not removed from the medical register for stating that children with ASD have gastrointestinal symptoms.

He was struck off for not disclosing a financial interest in his research, failing to disclose a financial interest in technology associated with areas of research, his distortion of case records in his published work and unethical use of invasive tests on children.

It shouldn't need repeating but the balance of evidence is vastly aligned with the idea that vaccines are a very safe and effective (but not risk free) medical intervention and have no causative link with ASD or other developmental issues in children.

But I fear that this false and manufactured controversy has gone beyond rational and reasonable discourse.

So I offer... cartoons.

He was struck off because he didn't have ethical clearance for 'research' that required lumbar punctures etc.

He says he had ethical approval to examine samples obtained for clinical need.

He said lumbar punctures etc were carried out for clinical reasons.

You have to make your choice here. Certainly the tests performed on the children are routine in the states. The gastro tests he performed given the children's symptoms, were earlier this year approved as gold standard treatment in the journal of paediatrics.

Personally having seen the reticence if people working in the NHS to carry out any tests/treatment on people with learning disabities I tend to think he was acting in (rare) patient interest.

I don't know whether he was right or wrong about mmr (no-one does, whatever they tell you) but at least he cared.

I wonder why all the parents of his supposed victims are waving placards supporting him? Maybe because he listenedto them.

Gp's aside I have come across several paediatricians who agree with him. Including one this year post GMC who said, and I quote ' if there's a subgroup of susceptible children we should be doing our best to identify them'. She's not the first but so close to the gmc yes I did have to pick myself up offgtge floor.

Anyway if you're a GP tell me something useful like how I can get single tetanus vaccination for children on the NHS. 5 in 1 is not an option.

Saintlydamemrsturnip I understand that single tetanus vaccine is no longer manufactured and so is unavailable.

The options are the 5-in-1, or depending on the age of the child one can give the 4-in-1 (Repevax, which is diphtheria, tetanus, polio and pertussis) or 3-in-1 (Revaxis, which is diphtheria, tetanus and polio).

When your children are very small, you can't know if they belong to a subgroup of susceptible children. In our case, family medical history came to light which was completely unknown to us when the kids were due routine vaccinations. Fortunately, however, we had decided not to vaccinate anyway.

Saintlydame, I think I read somewhere that Dr Halvorsen offers a single Tetanus vaccine but I think it's only suitable for children over 7. I worried about tetanus myself until I realised how few cases actually do occur despite such a huge percentage of the population not keeping up with their boosters. If it's any reassurance, the last tetanus case in an under 15 in the UK was in 2000/1 and the girl HAD been fully vaxed! She survived btw.

Lumber punctures without good reason are a clear ethical breach.
Or would be if he had got ethical clearance.

That's before we get onto paying 5yr olds for blood samples at birthday .
Oh and then boasting and laughing about their adverse reactions.

And he lied about the his research.

He misrepresented the case notes of patients/subjects to prop up his pet theory.

He made unsupportable assertions unrelated to the contents of his paper at press releases related to them.

Any one of these would have serious enough to consider removal of license.

Agreed that you don't do lumbar punctures without clinical reason - the argument is what demonstrates clinical need. In the States it is usual to do a lumbar puncture when there are signs of an infection in the CNS. In this case it could be argued that there were.

In fact the lumbar punctures didn't reveal anything clinically useful so they were stopped after a few cases (rather suggesting they were not being performed as part of a research protocol).

The GMC didn't have a problem with the birthday party blood taking - he was let off that. He certainly didn't laugh at their adverse reactions - he cracked a joke about himself. It's that sort of misrepresentation that makes it look like a smear campaign.

How did he lie about his research? How did he misrepresent case notes? He was done for including children with the 'wrong diagnosis' because he included children with regressive autism rather than cdd. At the time Rutter said that under the age of 2 the two dx were 'indistinguishable'. He seemed to forget writing that at the GMC. Once dsm v is published they will be officially diagnosed together anyway.

And before someone mentions the legal aid stuff there is documentation (faxes) showing that Horton knew about the legal aid funding before publication of the paper.

Shame so many memories were unreliable under oath.

Bubble - thanks. I must talk to Halvorsen although if I have 2 boys needing 3 plus travel & accomodation in London that's ££££'s. Ds2 is over 7 now so I'll check it out. Although in his book Halvorsen does say that in a crowded vaccination schedule it might be one to look at ditching.

I did ask my GP who looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights. At that stage I missed my previous GP who was brilliant. If it is available he would find it.

Thanks for that info from me too, Bubble.

Full GMC ruling here.

So in order, including only those breaches associated with deception (not dangerous practice or breach of contract):

4ai Lied to the lawyer Barr to procure legal aid funds for clinical work which would have been covered on the NHS.

4aii Spent some of that legal aid money on expenses other than work on which it was said to be needed.

6v Failed to disclose financial interests i=on ethics proposal.

7b&c Should have, and failed to, disclose involvement with MMR litigation to ethics board.

9a Shows that he disregarded symptomatology to include Child 2 in research in breach of ethics and clinical need.

11abc Child 1 was put through for various invasive tests without clinical reason and not covered under research ethics.

13abc Child 3 was put through for various invasive tests without clinical reason and not covered under research ethics.

15abc Child 3 was put through for various invasive tests without clinical reason and not covered under research ethics.

17abc Child 6 was put through for various invasive tests without clinical reason and not covered under research ethics.

19abc Child 9 was put through for various invasive tests without clinical reason and not covered under research ethics.

21abc Child 5 was put through for various invasive tests without clinical reason and not covered under research ethics.

23abc Child 12 Child 3 was put through for various invasive tests without clinical reason and not covered under research ethics.

25 abc Child 8 was put through for various invasive tests not covered under research ethics.

27abc Child 7 was put through for various invasive tests not covered under research ethics.

31ciii Failed to disclose potential conflict of interest to Lancet .

32ab Nature of subject groups misrepresented to Lancet.

33 & 34 Misrepresented how subjects used in Lancet paper were collected.

35 After questions were raised regarding how subjects in Lancet paper were collected reiterated misleading claims about subject collection.

36 At a research meeting again used misleading statements about subject collection.

This is from the first 3rd of the GMC findings.
There is much more.

He was dishonest in his research.

Well there's paper evidence that the lancet did know. He disclosed what needed to ce disclosed at the time (which was an actual conflict of interest) but was tried under today's rules ( of a perceived conflict of interest)

Gmc says invasive tests were not needed - parents still to this day disagree. It's a difficult one. Have just hada conversation with a neuro whether my son should be given an MRI. We decided not - yet, but maybe in the future. The people making the rulings though were not gastroenterologists and the consensus published in pediatrics this year talked about the danger of doing nothing in autism because communication of pain is impaired. Incidentally the clinical decisions were made in the main by prof walker-smith rather than Wakefield.

It's been done to death on here. I know I've adressed all those points previously on here. Wakefiled had addressed them all elsewhere (articles in the autism file in the main). Ultimately you take your choice and either believe that the gmc trial was fair or you go with
the parents and Wakefield and believe it was a stitch up. I know some of the parents so it's not been a difficult for me. If people are sane & say their child regressed I tend to believe them. It's not actually that difficult to spot a regression.

"If people are sane & say their child regressed I tend to believe them"

Even if we do this we have the issue of causation vs. correlation.

And no matter how intelligent the observers you can not differentiate this on one case.

You need to use epidemiological techniques and ensure to take into account all the factors that enable you to make this judgement:

strength,
consistency,
specificity,
temporality,
biological gradient,
plausibility,
coherence,
experimental evidence,
analogy

And the hypothesis falls down.

Autism is primarily a genetic disorder.

This hypothesis is buttressed by many mutually supporting strands of evidence.

This doesn't make it any less distressing a diagnosis.
And I understand the inclination to assign blame.

I just don't think it's helpful.