Those with unvaccinated children at school/nursery - advice please.

[insnognito]

Ok, am regular here but want to keep my dcs' vaccine status relatively private as obviously sensitive subject. Ds had multiple health problems as a baby and so we delayed vaccinating him, always intended to vaccinate with some but have not done so yet. He is now at school. Dd has had some vaccines so far. I am just wondering, those of you with unvaccinated children in group settings, do you not worry for them? I am thinking particularly of Swine Flu at minute and how it penetrates the lungs more deeply, and whether ds should get a prevnar jab and a Hib jab. Does anyone else have the same worries?

No, I don't worry about my unvaccinated child as she is in much more robust health than my vaccinated child.

I do however worry pretty much constantly about my vaccinated child. Our case is a bit irregular though I suppose as vaccination made DD very ill and she is still suffering the consequences 6 years on.

It has been an easy decision for me not to vaccinate DD2 after what happened to DD1.

Good luck with your decisions.

thanks for the messages. I'm not really considering the SF vaccine, my dcs are not eligible for it at present [although if I could get Celvapan as an asthmatic I would consider it] I am considering Prevnar which prevents many strains of bacterial pneumonia though, as that is a frequent complication of SF.

Measles is a known immunosuppressant.
see here

I am though worried about vaccinating ds now so that his immune system might be challenged when he faces SF. I seem to be the only one dithering, everyone else seems so sure either way!

insnogito - in answer to your question, no I am not considering prevnar. I am actually more worried about getting dd (16 weeks old) vaccinated (DTP) (she is having them in 2 weeks because she was 10 weeks prem and I wanted to wait) and the resulting impact on her immune system (re. swine flu).

Not sure how thread veered so much onto SF or measles, OP asked about Prevnar () and HIb.

HIb:
More than half of children with HIb develop HIb meningitis. Of those, there has been observed
significant brain damage in 12-45% of survivors.

HI insnognito I didn't see this earlier but popped back to say, I didn't know that, and I understand what you mean.

Have been reading up on it.

Also interesting how measles temporarily suppresses HIV, and means you are less likely to develop asthma.

peanut if you read the OP you will see that she specifically mentions concern about swine flu.

Thans for that info peanut Yes if you don't mind looking into Prevnar that would be interesting. the thing about Hib is that the mortality rate is awful, but the actual incidence of getting the disease is low [even before vaccination] However I do not treat it likely. The jury being out on the diabetes link still troubles me though. I have also read about an association between Prevnar and Asthma [also in our family surprise surprise] but don't know how strong that link is.

stuffit

I do not treat it lightly

I know someone who (as an otherwise healthy adult, no underlying chronic health issues) had pneumonia from HIb, very ill, nearly hospitalised. I guess that I would assume that an unimmunised person is very likely to get it at some point in their lifetimes.

Prevnar: to prevent Streptococcus pneumoniae infections (SPI).

Almost 5 in 1000 people each year get pneumonia from SPI -- Much higher incidence for very young and elderly. 5-35 cases /1000 people of other significant SPI (reference for this paragr). Numbers consistent with uptodate.com. Among children, annual 2400/100,000 cases (2.4%) of severe SPI observed in unvaccinated population of children, of whom 5% die each year.

5-7+% mortality rate among those who get pneumonia from SPI, with pneumonia as the cause of death. 25% of those who get pneumonia also get bacteremia, and 20-60% of those will die. The other cause of death is meningitis associated with SPI, but I can't figure out an incidence for that. I'm guesstimating a 10% death rate from the 5% of people who get pneumonia from SPI.
BUT, I think Prevnar doesn't immunise against all strains of <span class="italic">S.</span> <span class="italic">pneumoniae</span>? See link below about extra deaths reduced (UK Cost-benefit study).

Among 50 children in Northern England, some of whom were not suitable for vaccination (so probably had severe underlying health problems), 28% died and 28% had long term consequential health problems. Other sources on the Internet give statistics of anywhere between 3% and 30% mortality for severe SPI, and 2-25% risk of brain damage from it.

UK study reckoned that Prevnar would reduce annual 149 deaths related to SPI per annum to 29 deaths, (so a 20% reduction).

You know, if I was going to hedge my bets, if I were you, I might go for HIb jab (stats seem more clear-cut) but pass up on PCV.

~~~~~~~~~~~

This anti-vacc website reckons the risk of seizures from Prevnar is 1/10,000, which they also reckon is the same as the risk that the jab is preventing. If I get a chance I try to compare numbers, but I've got to run right now!

Does Prevnar cause Asthma?
Sorry, I can't find anything that seems objective to say as much. S. pneumoniae does seem to be much worse for asthmatics to catch.

that is interesting peanut, thankyou. I have read that Hib is very unusual in over-fives though, whether that is because pre-vaccination most children were exposed to the bacteria in the early years I do not know. So I am surprise you think most people unvaccinated would get ill from Hib at some point in their lives, after all, no one under [I think] 13 has been vaccinated against it. But food for thought.

That is also very interesting that Prevnar may only reduce pneumonia infections by 20%. I know it only protects against the 7 major strains, and that other strains are gaining dominance now [still rarer though than original 7 strains] So difficult.

this article illustrates what I am getting at with regards to Prevnar and SF.

Rate of 1/13,300 adults getting nasty HIb disease per year. That suggests a lifetime risk of getting HIb (assuming an adult lives 86 years, and I call over 16s adults) of... 70/13,300 (or about 1/200). But presumably most people get it before adult age, or they have been immunised? So I reckon, chances are someone unvaccinated will get it sometime in their lifetime. What's interesting about that article is theory that lack of exposure to HIb makes adults lose their antibodies (like with chickenpox). Which is why adult infection rate is going up.

I probably did those numbers wrong, didn't I?

Strepoccuus is carried by 60% of the population, though, everyone really will get that for sure at some time; just depends on severity of it. I haven't even revisited Prevnar numbers I typed earlier -- gotta run feed tired child now.

I love the number of people who put their own vague, unspecific opinions on how good their children's immune systems are over 150 years of immunology and people who have spent years training to be paediatricians.

I would hate for an unsuspecting person to happen upon this stuff and presume that this is a normal and valid state of mind.

Hi mso: your posting style is very patronising and I think it could offend some people. It's a bit strange and archaic to use "valid" in this context.

Anyway, luckily my children have never had to see a paediatrician, which I think says something about the state of their immune systems. Sadly not true for many of their friends with chronic atopic conditions. No paediatrician will tell me that one reason their immune systems are different could be because they haven't been subject to as many vaccinations: however I'm sure that if they were in general "iller", they would be quite happy to make that assumption.

I don't think it does to imply ignorance among people who chose not to vaccinate. I think if you hang around vaccination threads you will see why.

meh, don't be offended, i'm just used to fairly robust debate. your second paragraph is precisely an example of what i am talking about. a vague anecdote with no real evidence behind it masquerading as data, complete with a rather dubious assumption about something that hasn't happened.

if you want a counter anecdote, my two sons have been vaccinated with everything offered, as have i and my other half. none of us have ever seen a paediatrician either. this proves nothing, just like your anecdote. my 3rd will have exactly the same when he is offered them.

if you want more anecdotes, in my work i see lots of people over 50 blind in one eye because of measles. none that i can remember under 50. i wonder why that might be?

the thing is, people are really, really crap at evaluating small risks. it's just not something we have evolved to do because the big risks have historically been far more important. that's why we need scientific data to properly evaluate the relative risks of things like childhood diseases and vaccines. and don't think for a second that the data isn't in yet. it's in and it's conclusively in favour of one of the most successful medical interventions of the last 200 years, as measured by the number of children who aren't dead.

the reason this irritates me so much is that those who come on here to persuade others not to vaccinate are basically increasing the risk of other peoples' children dying, not just their own. someone's unvaccinated 3 year old could give my pre vaccination child measles and if i'm really unlucky kill him, and that really pisses me off.

I'm not offended, think you're a bit odd

don't worry they're less likely to get it from an unvaccinated child than a vaccinated child, if that makes you feel any better

source for that claim?

the vaccination thing, not me being a bit odd. i couldn't care less if someone on an internet forum thinks i'm odd.

and that's precisely why those with healthy children who can be vaccinated should be. because it protects children like yours from disease. i've never claimed that those who have been advised by a professional (i'm talking real professionals here, not homeopaths) to not vaccinate should do.

I suppose it depends where you live. Some areas may be of equal risk, some either way, depending on vaccine uptake. You've got ten children in a hundred walking around vaccinated non-immune anyway. Mumps, probably many more.

You are very passionate about telling people what to do, mso. I think that's odd, also you are quite rude in a way that's rather uncalled for, when people haven't been rude to you. You seem very angry.