Vegan v omnivore

[GlastoNinja]

I have been through the mill health wise with lots of long term conditions and short term illnesses. Realistically I’m pretty run down, I’m pretty much always tired and catch everything going and more.

I’ve just had acupuncture with someone who is very holistic and reads a lot of evidence. Her background is pharmacy so she’s coming from a scientific place.

Anyway, I’m vegan, she suggested eating meat would help.

I’ve always said I’m not an idiot, my decision to eat ethically comes from a privileged place where I can have the choice but if ever I needed to, I would. My blood results have always been fine according to GP blood results. She says NHS numbers are low and what we actually need is much higher.

I’ve just checked my results and they’re all at the bottoms end of what the NHS considers OK, so much lower than what she says is OK.

Can I please invite a balanced discussion about health benefits of vegan v omnivore diet?

(she didn’t seem to be remotely interested in the dairy side, she was only advocating for fatty meat - plus vegetarian is just as cruel as eating meat so I’m not interested in just going veggie)

I have a friend whos been veggie for decades and more recently vegan. Something (iron maybe?) dropped to such an extent she was medically advised to eat meat. Now she has a piece of the most ethically produced steak she can get once a week, her DP cooks it and she regards it as medication and simply doesn’t talk about it. It does seem to have helped her.

Perhaps try eating cheese, milk and eggs if you really don’t want to eat meat. See if it helps. If not you can always try meat.

Thank you for the suggestion @Cyclistmumgrandma It’s the meat she talked about rather than dairy (it was to do with the fats). I also believe the dairy industry is just as cruel as meat having read about it, so for me, there is no grading in it. But I appreciate your post

Thank you @Ddakji I think I’ve only eaten steak once in my life. It was very chewy from memory! That does seem like a sensible compromise.

I’m keen to hear different views

I think some people do well and others don't on a vegan diet - it depends on your own needs and what exactly you are eating. Our guts are all very different so two people eating the same thing may get different nutrients. In the end the only way to know is to try it and see how you feel.

Do you have a calf-at-foot dairy near you and would that be something you'd be more comfortable with as a source of milk? Ditto someone who keeps their own chickens and looks after them.

If you decide to try meat, how about meat products that often go to waste like offal or bone broth. That way you could eat meat, if you need to, while minimising your contribution to animal suffering.

Another possibility would be to work with a dietician who is familiar with vegan diets and is able to help you tweak your diet to make it as balanced and nutritious as possible, with supplements to top up if necessary. It could be that there's a vegan diet out there that would work for you.

OP, sorry to hear you are not well.

Vegan can mean a lot of different foods. Can I ask if you eat a lot of fresh fruit and veg? Or do you eat processed vegan food?

What is your diet like as a vegan OP?

I have been vegan for almost 20 years, vegetarian before that and feel good. I take care with my diet and I eat lots of beans, lentils, nuts, seeds, wholegrains, fruit, veg, etc, a bit of processed stuff/fake meats for ease sometimes but not much.

Any diet can be bad but also some people do seem to be more prone to illness for whatever reason, it’s more than diet.

It’s very complex eating vegan diet to absorb sufficient nutrients as eg iron is more easily absorbed from meat and it’s very difficult to release it from many based foods. It’s also a combination of nutrients which help absorption so you could be eating plenty of X but because you’re eating Y with it you absorb very little compared to when eating meat - if that makes sense?! Can you consider fish? That’s always good too, and red meat like beef or lamb

Thank you all for your thoughts. Mostly my diet is fruit and veg, nuts, lentils etc. very occasionally if I’m eating out and options are limited I will have fake meat. I do eat vegan cheese just to make things more interesting (if that’s not an oxymoron 😉)

Ive always been pretty active, moreso up till covid when I ended up with long covid. I thought I was over that but perhaps not?

oh I’m so lost with it!

The trickiest thing to get with a Vegan diet is enough B12. I have a B12 adsorption problem and have to have regular injections- it was only discovered via investigations into my anaemia.

Do you supplement with B12, D, EPA-DHA?

Long Covid could be part of it. A relative of mine, who does eat meat, seems to catch everything since they had Covid in 2020.

How old are you? Lots of women feel run down around peri menopause, menopause.

Have you tried vitamins? Do you take b12? Have you had things like thyroid checked? That being off can make you feel awful, I remember my mum saying she felt like a hypochondriac before she was finally diagnosed with a problem with it. Are you under a lot of stress, do you get enough sleep, these things can all impact your immune system.

You have no intention of eating meat as you even see vegetarian as cruel. So what are you wanting to get out of this.

for what it’s worth I think lots of different diets can be healthy but I think not all people can be healthy on all diets.

I think due to individual physiology, some people can obtain all they need from a diet that some other people can’t. I also think different people have different needs

if you are struggling health wise and your crucial levels are low then you’ll need to do something about it. What you do is your choice.

I think for some people they can manage on a vegan diet but generally humans are better suited to an omnivore diet.

The year I spent as a vegetarian I was constantly ill and also very anxious, I started eating fish and chicken again and immediately felt much better.

I used to take B12 but sorted of drifted off it, I will get back to it again. I’ve never heard of EPA-DHA so will look into it, thank you.

I am 52 so peak peri age, I can’t use HRT because of my other meds. It may be that, but I want to do all I can to manage this so will try anything I can.

@bumbaloo perhaps I wasn’t clear, if I need to eat meat I will do that, I won’t go back to dairy as a half way measure if what I need is meat. I don’t see the difference between the two from an animal welfare perspective.

I would like to hear a balanced perspective on whether meat is needed for health. I’d usually say no, but an honest and open minded conversation would be both interesting and helpful.

If ethics are your main concern, consider ordering venison from places that have to cull for environmental reasons - no natural predators due to creatures like wolves being extinct in the U.K. They are managed ethically during their lives too

As you have said your health issues are recent, I think your age and being peri will be a lot of the issue here OP.

That’s such a helpful suggestion thank you.

I will bear (bare?) that in mind - thank you

Getting old sucks!

Is there anything else that has changed other than getting older? Are you drinking more alcohol? Are you overweight at all? You suggested your exercise might be less than it was? I've been vegan since I was 11 and am now mid sixties. I've always been very healthy but in lockdown I started drinking alcohol every day, stopped exercising and put on 3 stone! I felt awful. Started feeling so tired and having indigestion/heartburn for the first time ever and have since discovered I have both a fatty liver and high cholesterol. I have given up alcohol now, do strength training and walk every evening.

I have been looking at online health check service such as Thriva or Zoe where they do in depth blood tests and I think Zoe does a gut health check too.
Something like this might give you more of an idea of what, if anything, is going on so that you can rectify it without eating meat.

Wishing you well and it would be interesting to hear what you decide to do.

Thank you, those are interesting suggestions. I don’t drink at all now, for the last year or so, due to meds. Before that, it wasn’t much.

Pre covid, I was running 5k most days and doing yoga about 3-4 times a week. After covid, I exercise usually about 3 or 4 times a week but due to ill health it’s often hard to have a consistent routine with it.

People tease me because I’m irritatingly healthy in terms of lifestyle. I do have a lot of stress but I’m very grounded and resilient so it’s probably not that.

I might try the Zoe thing

Have your B12 tested, your Omega 3 index tested (should be 8-12), vitamin D tested and then of course iron, and the lot.
Omega 3 will be a private test, as it is not covered by NHS. It doesn't cost much and Omegaquant sends you a prick test at home.

You can't get enough B12, EPA-DHA from diet. You must supplement for those. The ALA that you get from flaxseeds and other land plant has a conversion rate to EPA-DHA that is close to zero. B12, unless you eat dirt and more dirt, you can't get it from any plant.

Even if you decide to eat meat, those would be useful to check or supplement.

It takes nutrients awareness to thrive on a plant based diet. And some planning. It doesn't have to be perfect on a daily basis, but during the course of the week, my needs are covered.

You also need to adapt based on new science. I never used to supplement with selenium, knowing that a single Brazil nut a day was enough until a paper analysed 20 packets of selenium and maybe only 2 of these had good amount of selenium. Seeds and land change, processing, packaging, traveling, will affect nutrients.

When I was vegan in my twenties I felt initially much better and then gradually worse. I don't do well enough without meat (but do have a dairy allergy, hence feeling better). I've been back and forth with my dietary choices but ultimately a diet of lots of vegetables, legumes, wholegrain carbs, fish and some meat is what I feel best on. No sugar or alcohol helps with menopause symptoms.
I can get a bit obsessed with supplements and there are too many, so I figure I am best trying to get most of what I need from food. However probiotics and probiotics (or fibres and fermented foods) are helpful post virally and iron, vit d, b vits can for me be helpfully supplemented. I'm a fan of cod liver oil. I think our soil and our food is pretty depleted now.

I suggest finding a local game butcher and talk to them. They stock culled venison, but also other alternatives that may have been shot for conservation purposes rather than the main purpose being for people to eat. Knowing that the animal has lived it's life in the wild and that you are eating something that needed to be culled anyway would help with the ethics of it.

Thank you everyone, I really appreciate your balanced and supportive responses. I know the subject can be quite divisive so I’m grateful for the conversation ❤️