MMR and autism, Crohn's disease in family

[BumperliciousNeedsToSleep]

I know this topic has been done before, but the time has come for me to think about this with DD.

Normally I wouldn't have given it a second thought but I did read that some of the research posits a link with MMR, autism and crohn's disease and other autoimmune disorders.

My husband's niece had crohn's disease and I have autoimmune thyroid disease. Do these factors put my DD at more risk? I know it is a very emotive subject, I would like to know what other people think. This feels like a huge responsibility and I want to get all the facts that I can.

You need to search for posts by jimjams and yurt / yurt1.

Personally, in your shoes, I'd avoid MMR and probably go for singles. But read JJ's/yurt's posts.

I've taken a look at some of the posts. I guess my biggest question is is there a way of determining a predisposition for which the MMR might be a trigger?

Is crohn's disease in a cousin a risk factor? Is autoimmune thyroid disease a risk factor?

Yes, they all indicate genetic susceptibility to weakness in the gut. Any autoimmune condition means that gut lets through undigested molecules, body then recognises them as enemy and attacks them, but at the same time, through molecular mimicry, these antibodies can cause damage to other organs/tissues in the body.

I am not a geneticist nor a gastroenterologist nor anything but if you want my opinion.... I'd guess first cousin might be too distant to matter but a mother with autoimmune thyroid disease might worry me. I have what used to qualify as contra-indictions for MMR myself - they've updated the guidance and now it doesn't matter but it was a big factor in putting me off for ds.

The fabulous Jimjams' advice when I was facing a similar-ish dilemma (I have much less marked auto-immune issues - have had very occasional bouts of psoriasis and IBS) was to go for singles if possible. If we did MMR to accompany it with Vit A. We did MMR in the end as were at that time having a lot of hassle sourcing singles, and ds1 was fine, but I regretted it simply due to the worry I'd had, we are steering clear of the 'booster' (have had ds1's immunity tested as am concerned about measles) and ds2 will be having singles. We will be starting with measles and leaving at least a year betwen each vaccination.

If you do do MMR I think I would postpone it to after 15 months at least.

It's so difficult. If we had endless money I would go for the singles and not think twice but it's a lot of money that we don't have. Obviously DD is absolutely worth it. I'm still unsure of what to do.

Is there a benefit to delaying it?

It is supposed to work better given slightly later.

FWIW I think you could safely leave the mumps and rubella until later in childhood. There is evidence of MMR-induced immunity wearing off in adolescence or adulthood - hence e.g. clusters of mumps in university halls.

hey bumper

as far as I know, the risk factor for most things tends to be in immediate family; ie father mother or siblings. I think first cousin is too far away.

your post has given me some food for thought though....not sure of my coeliac disease means that DD is at a higher risk. I think I need to do some more research.

wrt to delaying it, I think the theory is that their immune systems are better developed the longer you leave it.

I was trying to do the maths for first cousins but my brain is too tired! If siblings share 50% of their genes, do first cousins share 12.5%?

I have Crohn's and I was told off the record by an immunologist that if it were him he would not do mmr
Much closer relationship though

Plus it is the measles vaccine that is implicated rather than just mmr I believe

yes it is

It is measles (vaccine or wild) that is implicated, but the risk increases with the combination with other viruses, which makes MMR riskier. (There is something Jimjams has quoted about catching measles and is it chicken pox? or mumps? in the same year which considerably increases autism risk)

Will be watching this thread with interest. Like Lackadaisycal I too have coeliac disease and a few other autoimmune diseases. Aspergers in my sisters child also. I have 4 children and always had the MMR but have never had the booster. Wondering now if i have done the wrong thing for my children by not getting singles .

Cosi, I really wouldn't worry - they are all fine, I assume from your post, so it's not a problem. Even in high risk children, it will only be a tiny minority who are affected - and there is considerable dispute about the whole concept of high risk anyway. An ordinary doc who sticks to the party line won't even tell you your history might affect whether your children should have MMR or not so how the hell are parents supposed to know?

Problem is there's been so much shit, such a campaign of demonisation, of any doc who raises concerns about MMR (even though anyone who has raised concerns has been very clear that is a TINY minority of children who could, theoretically, be affected) that most won't even go there.

btw, I had singles for ds instead of MMR, and delayed for six months, but I let him have the MMR booster because by the age of 4 I was convinced he was fine and didn't have any risk factors. This is not scientific but just to reassure you you haven't done the wrong thing!

The two expert reviewers I trust, Drug and Therepeutics Bulletin and the Cochrane Collaboration, have both said all available evidence says MMR is safe - but that there haven't been enough well-designed safety studies. Which is why I went for singles, even though scientifically speaking there's no evidence that's any safer - if there is something dodgy about MMR it could be any one of the components so could still be there in singles (unless it's to do with the interaction between the elements).

this is such a hard decision.

we did singles in the end - but it is hard to know what to do for the best.

good luck with it all.

Edam ....thankyou so much for that very kind and reassuring post, it really has helped thankyou for taking the time to post and help alleviate my fears

Oh, that's a very kind message, cosit, am sure I don't deserve such praise! Glad to have been of help.

This is a really interesting thread - didn't know there was a link. My sister's ds has chrons, another sisters dd caeliac and my ds at 'high risk' of aspergers. Is this coincidence do you think?

berolina - can i ask what you mean by accompanying the mmr by vit A? my dd is due her mmr in a few weeks, she'll be 21mo, i've been umming and ahing for months but have finally decided to go ahead with it as we can't get the singles here.

i have crohns and did really agonise about giving the DCs the MMR, in the end i did, and they are fine, but neither had any signs of gut problems before .. nor do they have any now.

very personal choice

vit a helps ameliorate the symptoms, morbidity and apparently mortality rate of measles

so perhaps the idea is that it would also ameliorate the side effects of the vaccine

DS hasn't had any shots at all, (11m) and won't. DH's uncle died from his 18mth ones. We don't know much more than that and it was a long time ago but that's enough for us.

You're very wise to be considering how your family's probs could influence. You just have to do what feels 'right-est'