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Physician associates missing diagnoses

61 replies

Rover1992 · 12/11/2023 10:24

Doctors are highly trained - and they too make mistakes. If they’re making mistakes after all the years of training, how can we expect physician associates not to? They have TWO YEARS of training. This expansion of them is terrifying

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12738457/amp/Breast-cancer-tragedy-shows-vital-health-chiefs-clamp-physician-associates-just-TWO-YEARS-training-MoS-handed-dossier-400-reports-concerned-doctors.html

Woman's death shows health chiefs must tackle physician associates

A young mother died earlier this year from aggressive breast cancer after delays caused by a misdiagnosis from a physician associate (PA) at her GP surgery, this newspaper has learned.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12738457/amp/Breast-cancer-tragedy-shows-vital-health-chiefs-clamp-physician-associates-just-TWO-YEARS-training-MoS-handed-dossier-400-reports-concerned-doctors.html

OP posts:
Darhon · 28/01/2024 18:37

Nippi · 15/11/2023 18:25

They are less well qualified than a nurse.
Should be re-named doctor's assistants.
Hospitals using them as much if not more than GPs.

They have to have a prior science degree and then 2 more years of training. Do they aren’t less well qualified than nurses who tend to now have a first degree (though a lot have a masters as well now).

GeneCity · 28/01/2024 18:43

@Darhon, but the science degree could be in Biochemistry or something like that I think. So, objectively, with regard to dealing with actual patients, they are less qualified than nurses.

Searchingforthelight · 28/01/2024 18:45

Nope. Thousands of doctors, who want to become anaesthetists, GPs, Radiologists etc- not given a place for training. The give is choosing to dumb down the NHS big time.

Physician associates missing diagnoses
Physician associates missing diagnoses
Physician associates missing diagnoses
Searchingforthelight · 28/01/2024 18:46

Agree, GeneCity, you can’t compare physician assistants to nurses who have years of experience before they can be in ANP/ ACP roles.

Searchingforthelight · 28/01/2024 18:47

Typo

The gov is choosing to dumb down the NHS.

ilovebreadsauce · 28/01/2024 18:50

AI is going to replace many doctors and in studies much more accurate

GeneCity · 28/01/2024 18:52

ilovebreadsauce · 28/01/2024 18:50

AI is going to replace many doctors and in studies much more accurate

Well, given the shortage of Drs, maybe some kind of sustainable balance can be reached then.

I don't particularly ascribe to either the AI will steal everyone's jobs, or AI is rubbish modes of thought.

Allthecatseverywhereallatonce · 28/01/2024 18:53

Darhon · 28/01/2024 18:35

They are going to be GMC regulated this year.

There has been a huge uproar about this with the BMA who don't want their regulator to oversee PA's.
The government always wants to do things on the cheap.

TheDogIsInCharge · 28/01/2024 18:59

SisterMichaelsHabit · 12/11/2023 12:54

We wouldn't need all these physician associates to plug gaps if they funded proper medical training the same way they fund other health courses.

I reckon a lot of people doing these physician associate courses would probably make great GPs with the right training but they are choosing these courses because most people have to follow the funding and you can get a funded apprenticeship to train as a PA or do it as an "allied health" subject on a postgrad course with a postgraduate student loan.

The PA course is attractive because it's shorter than a nursing degree (FFS) with more responsibility if they go to work in an average GP practice or A+E where they're supposed to be supervised but really who has the time to do that properly?

I'd love to retrain as a doctor, have wanted to since I graduated, and know I would be good at it if I did. But there's no access to any sort of student loan to pay for the 5 year undergraduate medical degree course fees, I don't have a related enough degree to walk into the postgrad one (which isn't well funded AFAIK either) and I don't have £45,000 sitting around plus living expenses. You can get a student loan to pay for a second degree in any allied health courses, nursing, paramedics, but not medicine, dentistry or pharmacy. Despite the fact we need a lot more doctors and dentists than art therapists right now.

Until they sort out proper funding for training to be a doctor and widen access so those of us who are from non-traditional backgrounds with the same aptitude have a reasonable chance of getting a place on a course and completing it (i.e. not having to leave for financial reasons), they're going to keep throwing out these stupid sticking plasters and complaining they have a shortage of doctors of their own making. And these sort of mistakes are the result.

Edited

Excellent post.

I will add that this does seem a deliberate way to plug the gigantic black hole of doctor vacancies in a cheap way.

Trusts are openly advertising PA jobs with a requirement of doctor levels of knowledge which is so irresponsible and dangerous that it beggars belief.

I have followed this sorry saga for some time on twitter and there have been instances when a PA has been rota'd on to cover for doctors. In a paediatric unit too...

TrishTrix · 30/01/2024 18:34

@Allthecatseverywhereallatonce I don't want to subsidise my regulator to provide regulation.

PAs often earn more than doctors.

They can fucking pay for their own bloody regulation framework.

(And I've contacted the GMC to say this but in slightly more moderate language).

Allthecatseverywhereallatonce · 30/01/2024 18:59

TrishTrix · 30/01/2024 18:34

@Allthecatseverywhereallatonce I don't want to subsidise my regulator to provide regulation.

PAs often earn more than doctors.

They can fucking pay for their own bloody regulation framework.

(And I've contacted the GMC to say this but in slightly more moderate language).

Edited

I completely understand this viewpoint. There needs to be a very clear division otherwise lined end up blurred.

We have PA's at work and honestly they behave like they are doctors. I have corrected some patients who asked me who that Dr was, the ones I meet, don't tend to introduce themselves as PA's. Patients struggle to understand the role.

An excellent role are the surgical/medical care practitioners. They tend to be nurses or ODPs and are a compliment to the Dr's role.

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