Anti Vaxxer

[ElinorRigby]

In part of a discussion group I raised the point that with any perspective eg holocaust denial, being an anti vaxxer, one could find people who produced 'arguments' in suport of their position. Like most people I vaccinated my children. The Wakefield scandal blew up when my daughter was young but even at the time, it appeared that Wakefield's research was unconvincing. I had a friend who was only partially sighted because his mother contracted measles during the time she was pregnant.

Anyway someone in the discussion group sent me this.

"Speaking as an ex vaxxer. 1000s hours of research and damage in my own family I do feel it is not appropriate to be lumped in with holocaust deniers. The very thing that broought me to theGI debate was that I saw the exact same pattern of disbelief of women, their abuse, doxxing and everything else. The pattern is exactly the same. So if you want to know the truth about vaccination you should do your research, as in all things before you knee jerk."

I really don't know how to reply. Or whether to reply at all. Any thoughts?

I’d ignore it. She’s thick

And pray- what truth does she speak of? Is she a flat earther too?

Some people are too stupid to bother with.

I'd ignore it.

I had DC who reached vax age after Wakefield, before it was fully debunked and after NHS let the single vaccine licence lapse at the height of a scare. I don't think it was remotely clear to a lay person that there was something wrong with The Lancer's publication standards, but it was clear that further research was being carried out. Waiting until that actually happened, given that the herd then was in good shape because effective single vax had been available to everyone over 1 year old, wasn't an odd course of action.

Trouble is that if you don't get vax on schedule, you might never remember to catch up. Mine are all now fully vaxxed (indeed have had some not on NHS schedule bought for them). But I suspect numbers of their peers never were.

And of course vax rates recovered post-Wakefield.

I think it is may be over-simplistic to keep referring back to that - yes it's part of the picture, but why the new decline in take-up rates?

And I'm always very wary of anyone telling people todotheir own research - unless of course your audience is a convention of epidemiologists or similar

But some people DO react adversely to vaccinations. Just like some people react to bee stings, penicillin etc.

It's not the same as being a holocaust denier

Holocaust denial is a hate crime because the holocaust actually happened.

A parent who has concerns about vaccines because of their own experience, i.e. their child has been adversely affected by a vaccination is not an anti-vaxxer. They have a valid reason to feel concerned. You'll read arguments against this on MN from people who think suffering an adverse reaction, no matter how bad it is, is always better than getting a vaccine preventable illness such as measles. I disagree but there you go.

A parent who refuses to vaccinate because 'vaccines cause autism' is an anti-vaxxer and is also quite stupid.

I personally wouldn't put someone who commits a hate crime in the same bracket as an anti-vaxxer.

Ignore! They are stupid.
I have an uncle who had brain damage due to complications from measles. (He is in his 70's & vaccinations were not available at the time of his birth.)
A Lifetime of care... firstly from his parents and now in a home. He took months to settle in this home... I spare you the details, but I say as much as that he can have very violent outbursts if in unfamiliar surroundings of with strangers to him.

THINK AGAIN - a simple injection or a possible lifetime of 24/7 care for your DC?

I say a lot of stupid things but I reckon even I would have dodged the bullet of seeming to compare anti-vax to holocaust denial. I suggest chalk this up to experience & let it go. You had your say. They had theirs. Move on.

I'm not anti vax bit I am anti MMR.
I object to their conflation on MN and othwr spaces.
My children are vaccinated against measles but not by a triple live vaccine, not when the alternative is freely available for a small (ish) cost.

My cousin has brain damage caused by the MMR. He needs a lifetime of care, and although we always hoped the effects would be temporary, it is clear in his 20s this is not the case. This happened to us. There is a government fund to compensate people like us. I don't understand why anyone would deny that there are adverse reactions to vaccines. Even the manufacturers do not deny this.

But some people DO react adversely to vaccinations. Just like some people react to bee stings, penicillin etc.

Which is why these children rely on the herd immunity offered by children who have been vaccinated.

I'm not anti vax bit I am anti MMR. I object to their conflation on MN and other spaces

So your children have been vaccinated against measles. What about mumps (which has been doing the rounds at some universities because the students' parents believed "Dr" Wakefield)? And what about German measles, which is a mild illness in a child, but can cause birth defects if a pregnant woman contracts it?

Please could you supply a link to some peer reviewed scientific articles stating that the MMR is unsafe.

Deeperthan there has always been a risk related to vaccines, but this only happens to a small percentage of people. Usually the benefits of a vaccine outweigh the risks of actually contracting the disease, which is why we no longer have polio or smallpox, and fewer cases of measles, whooping cough, diphtheria etc. Although measles cases are on the rise again because the uptake of the MMR has dropped.

I'm sorry that your cousin was so unlucky

DeeperThan, how much govt compensation did your cousin get?

"Please could you supply a link to some peer reviewed scientific articles stating that the MMR is unsafe."

There is oddles of published research on the side effects of MMR, which - like all vaccines - is not risk-free. The summary of the evidence base is condensed into the list of side-effects which is included in every pack, after approval from the national licensing authority.

It is just plain wrong to state a jab is safe for every recipient, or to suggest there is no peer-reviewed evidence on side effects.

However, it is also clear from the research that the risks from jabs are both less common that from the disease and also less severe. For measles, dramatically so, as there are no recorded cases ever of SSPE (the nastiest complication of measles) from the jab.

The semantics of using 'safe' rather than 'safer' seem quite nit-picky in some assertions. But they are not always synonyms.

All vaccines offered by NHS are 'safe' in the sense that they are safer to have than contracting the disease itself. That does not mean they are 'safe' in the sense of being risk-free.

I would always say vaccinate your kids (and yourself where appropriate). I have nursed someone who died of tetanus. DH's cousin is blind thanks to her mother's contact with measles during pregnancy.
Vaccines save lives.
But I am concerned that there is talk of making it compulsory and of getting SM companies to clamp down on anti Vaxx information on the interweb. Freedom of speech and parental choice are at risk.

When the HPV vaccination was introduced DD1 was in the first group of girls to be offered it. I read up and found that the NHS vaccine she would be offered was Cervarix which does not offer the additional protection against genital warts that Gardasil offered. My understanding was that Cervarix had been chosen as the cheaper option.
I discussed it with DD (and DH). We agreed that at 13 we were not expecting her to be sexually active and there was no immediate need for her to have the vaccine. We decided, with her agreement, we would pay for her to have Gardasil privately when she was 16.

As it turned out, by the time she was 16 the government/NHS had changed recommendations and now offered Gardasil, so she had it at the GP practice along with DD2 who was now old enough to be offered it.

So that is an example of parental choice being proved correct at a later date. But I was put under enormous pressure to get her vaccinated at the time. Letters from the chief medical officer of our health authority and such like.

Meanwhile they have only just extended the vaccination to boys and a large cohort has missed out.
If you have a teenage son I strongly recommend you get him vaccinated.
In my area of work I am seeing quite a few youngish men (40's,50's) with tongue/throat cancer that is "virally driven" ie related to HPV as per Michael Douglas. It is treatable if caught early but better prevented.