MMR opinions wanted pls.......yes or no????

[lilsmum]

hi my dd is 7 mth old and i am starting to think about mmr..... would really like some opinions good bad and ugly!!! so i can make up my mind what to do... my nephew has been diagnosed with mild autism so obviously i am a little wary anyway but would really like some advice....please help!!!! xx

Measles doesn't worry me particularly (if caught in childhood-not infancy or adulthood) to be honest Edam Probably because I had it and remember it well- I was 8. My mum had measles complications- is deaf in one ear because of it but she is certainly no fan of the MMR or vaccination at all come to that.

The problem with making rubella society's responsbility is that when you give it to boys they are unable to benefit from it- protection really offers them no benefit- they are only doing it for altruistic reasons. This is fine providing either a procedure is 100% safe (and no vaccination is) or if society takes responsibility if that individual pays the ultimate price and suffers bad consequences as a result of their altruistic act. That doesn't happen at the moment. NO attempt is even made to identify children who have been damaged. ALthough my son fits the profile of the Columbia paper exactly- (mice who because "autistic" following vaccination with thimerosil) if I was to actually suggest to the medical profession that this is what happened I would be met with rolled eyes and a patronising there there. I think I would mind less if they actually provided some therapy but as you may know from my other posts we've had no SALT now since March even though his statement- a supposedly legally binding document- specifies that he should receive it regularly. I've lost any ideas that the medical profession may be caring- at least for children like mine.

I think you are right to be wary of autism- it's no fun. I'm not sure you lose the child or that thier basic personality changes, or that you lose a connection or anything like that - (ds1's personality is still affectionate and gentle, and we are as close as we have ever been) but in the case of severe autism you do lose the chance of your child growing up to live independently and that sucks. You also lose a lot of things that other families would take for granted. It is a complete lifestyle change- I guess you lose the chance to take your family into society easily when you are with your child.

Back to rubella:
The other problem with vaccinating babies against rubella is that protection can wear off after 10-20 years leaving young women susceptible. Hencethe reason for the introduction of the MMR booster in teenages in the US (and also because the numbers of measles and mumps cases in young adults was increasing). At the moment the numbers of rubella infection have decreased in the UK- but we haven't used MMR as long as America so our current young women will either have had rubella themselves or will have had the teenage jab. There are less children suscpetible so you would expect numbers to fall initially. My guess is that they will start to rise again in the next 10 years or so and then a teenage MMR booster will need to be intorduced here.

Of course to throw a spanner in the works- one of the complications of maternal rubella is in fact...... autism........ IIRC this hapens when its caught in the first few weeks of pregnancy.

You don't have to choose between MMR and no vaccinations. You can choose single vaccinations, if you prefer. I also feel guilty that I let my son be injected with mercury. I didn't know.

Thanks for explaining that Jimjams. The auti adults my sister works with are great, by the way, no disrespect to them, just wouldn't want to cause that to happen to my son IYSWIM.

Aloha, the problem with single jabs is that at least some of the people supplying them in the UK are very dodgy. It's an obvious business opportunity for someone seeking to exploit parents, I suppose. I know of two clinics that were shut down because a. they were operating without a licence (no-one had refused them a licence or anything, they just hadn't bothered to apply which suggests a rather cavalier approach) and b. the vaccine strains they were using were bloody useless and hadn't actually protected the children at all - their patients had to be innoculated all over again. I've heard of other clinics that just pretend to use vaccines and there's actually no drug in the syringe (although can't remember how credible that was). So I guess I'm left with taking ds to France and/or seeing my homeopath. And beneficial as homeopathy is, I'm just not convinced that it can actually protect you against disease to the same extent as immunisation.
None of this is straightforward, is it?

where did you hear the single jab stories from edam? The last I heard (a while ago) Paul Shattock had checked that all the clinics were using the correct strains. There was rather a strange situation where a clinic was sent the wrong strain of mumps though (wasn't used).

When we gave ds1 single measles we took him to a private GP - who took more care than anyone doing his standard ones did. The record keeping he gave me was far better as well.

No-one would choose autism edam- not offended at all- after all avoiding autism again is the main reason ds2 remains completely unvaccinated.

Have you spoken to your homeopath btw- if you do decide to vaccinate they will be able to give you something to help afterwards (or even before)- thuja or something like that. Completely unscientific but after ds2 had a major whooping cough exposure age 4 months (I was rather worried!) he was given homeopathic pertussin- he didn't get it. I understand what you mean though.

ok, i'll be shot down for this i know, but what about strengthening the immune system by actually having these illnesses in childhood when you're meant to have them. I know that sometimes complications result but the numbers are tiny and there are usually mitigating circs, as i understand it (and i'm sure the whole mn world is about to correct me) a big problem is not keeping fevers down, and children that are malnourished and/or live in impoverished circumstances (as usual, it's poor kids that are at risk, which is awful). i had measles, mumps and countless other childhood illnesses including chicken pox. i'm pretty healthy and seem to come down with major stuff v rarely (touch wood). does anyone out there think that maybe we should be allowing children to get stronger by combatting these generally harmless illnesses? that's how the immune system develops isn't it: by fighting off infections?

rubella wise, i really think that girls at 10 should be vaccinated, before onset of menstruation. why should the whole baby population be vaccinated when in fact the risk is to pregnant women, and you could combat this risk in this way. this is how they used to do it isn't it? what's changed except that mmr was introduced and babies need to be 'got' whilst their mothers are still taking them to see the health visitor. the fact that the head of immunisation (not sure of title, but david salisbury) for the govt gets money from the very company that manufacture the new five in one is a whole other area that i don't want to get into for fear of being labelled conspiracy theorist...but how come there hasn't been a hoo-ha over that, do you remember how vilified andrew wakefield was when it emerged that he was helping families get legal aid?

the whole thing sucks in terms of corruption and the way that parents are treated as imbeciles, unable to make decisions for themselves when presented with the facts.

if someone from the medical establishment had treated me as if i had half a brain and been honest about the risks of vacs (including mercury based preservatives, which i was reading about but couldn't get anyone to talk to me about it) maybe i wouldn't have decided not to vaccinate ds.

edam is right that the risks from vaccines are small. but that is risk of big things. what about the possibility that a whole generation's immune system is being compromised?

i know you'll all laugh at me, but the stuff i've read is frightening. and i take it seriously as it seems to me the people that write it have a lot less to gain then those that say that all babies should be vaccinated and that it's completely safe.

it's a horrible decision for any parent. i totally respect those that go for mmr. of course i'm frightened that ds might be one of the few that get complications. what makes me furious is the attitude of the powers that be to this issue. sorry for rant.

Will a GP on request test for immunity before the second MMR?

Due to us moving house he was missed, and hasn't been called for his second jab. (He's now 5.5). I don't particularly want to raise the issue with the GP, but I would like to know whether he is fully protected or not?

I feel confident with Direct Health 2000, Edam. I do, however, think it is absolutely terrible that the gvmt is blocking the importation of the rubella vaccine as I feel very much like you re social responsibility of those of us who feel we can vaccinate to vaccinate against this disease which could affect any of our kids as mothers or fathers. This is by no means an attack on you Jimjams. In your position, I wouldn't dream of vaccinating. I wonder, with your ds2's speech problems, do you think you may have had a narrow escape from autism with him?

Sophable, I thought like you about rubella, but after looking into it I was told by Sense - the deaf/blind charity - that the fact is, no vaccine is 100% so if you only inject girls at puberty, some will never be immune but won't know about it, and others will slip through the net and get pregnant unvaccinated. If the disease is quite common in boys/men then those women are quite likely to catch it when pregnant and their babies may be born catastrophically damaged - deaf and blind. You may say their mothers were irresponsible in not checking their immunity, but it's the babies who suffer. And of course, it does affect men - as fathers.

of course i wouldn't say that the mothers were irresponsible, altho i think that planned pregnancies should involve going and getting tested for your immunity...it's a tough one...what about having a programme of testing at 11 for all girls followed by vaccination...

that's the other thing about vaccinations that gets to me, half the time they don't work!!!

so have they now done away with the teenage rubella jab then?

wy cant they set up a testing programme of every 10 yrs or so (isnt that how long the jab should last??) to check rubella immunity.

tho my midwife told me that even if you catch rubella (like i did when young) u can still 'lose' your immunity. is that right?

i'm pretty sure they have misdee yes (done away with it)...does anyone know for sure?

I agree with you sophable! Also there is very good treatment available for measles- vitamin A- decreases the length of the disease and decreases insidence of complications. It can be given intravenously if necessary and even seems to help children who aren't malnourished (the particualr risk group). Call me cynical- but who is going to market vitamin A. I have some medical books from the pre-MMR days and there measles is described as a "mild childhood illness". The big worry I have about measles vaccination is that it means that many mothers will not have immunity to pass to their babies- measles in an infant is serious.

Aloha I figure in our family there are 2 things going on. The major one is the genetic predisposition to auto- immunity- there is also a tendecy to late development of speech etc - which probably indicates that neurones are late to myelinate. If neurones are late to myelinate they are susceptible to environmental damage for longer. I would worry a lot less about vaccinating a girl tbh (in terms of autism anyway) as they are more robust!

DS2 doesn't have the sensory issues etc hat ds1 has- and I'm not actually sure he has a speech disorder anymore- he's started speaking properly (so strangers can understand him) in the last couple of weeks. It's like a switch went on. So maybe he was a bit slow on the myelin front!

You can lose your immunity misdee but its less likely. All immunity is better off being topped up every now and then by exposure to the disease. So for example if you vaccinate your child against measles the best thing you can do to improve their immunity is then expose them to someone with measles!

Some people worry a lot about this- as there are now less cases of these childhood illnesses- people like me- who had measles- may well lose the immunity as I'm not having repeated exposures. (Exposing to the disease acts a bit like a booster jab).

I had ruebella TWICE as a child, then the jab at school, not surprisingly I am now immune! I don't know whether my immune system is dodgy because I also had chicken pox as a child and when pregnant came into contact with it, had a blood test and found out I wasn't immune to CP, I thenJ had to have a couple of jabs (one in each cheek!) to protect my now DS. I wonder what else I'm not immune to?

Sorry Jimjams posts crossed, you've answered my question!

PS - Great news about you DS' speach.

Yes, congratulations to ds2 from me too.

Sophable, I didn't mean 'you' as in 'you, Sophable', I meant it more as 'one' iykwim! I know rates of deaf/blindness in babies have dropped since vaccination for all for rubella. I just think it's such a nightmarish disability that I really felt that if I could, I had to vaccinate ds against it. But of course, he's still not vaccinated because the gvmt won't let clinics import the vaccine....

i started this thread and dont really know the facts....i thought they only give 1 mmr?! can someone pls explain the facts (i really dont have a clue really) has there been any proof either way if mmr does cause autism? sorry to be a bit thick!! lol

they give a MMR around 12mmonths, then a booster jab around 5th birthday.

Edam, what do you mean about regretting DTwP?
My son is due to have his pre-school booster will this be the same thing?

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Edam - do you know the details of the clinics that were shut down and the problem with the single jabs? Only ds had single jabs at desumo clinic. I am now a bit worried.

Edam, I had dd's single measles jab at the Breakspear Clinic, which is registered with a Government regulatory body, the National Care Standards Commission. More and more clinics are applying to be registered but the procedure takes ages (no doubt to make things even more difficult). It's not that the majority of these clinics "hadn't bothered" to apply for a licence, they are probably waiting for inspection/registration.
I'd advise anyone wanting single jabs to go to a registered clinic - the NCSC will tell which clincs are.

joanneg - We too went through Desumo, they got their license about 2 years ago. Huge fuss, as they were operating without one. In fact I think DS must have had at least his first jab with them, without a license. I'm not particularly worried about it. If you are in doubt about the jabs your child got, you could always have blood tests done to see exactly what is what.