Okay, this is pretty grim, but I need to know a few things about Bowel Cancer, and excess Carbon Di-Oxide in the blood

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

To give a vague background, my Nan died of what we think is the above, and the doctor said was the case and the death certificate says so too.

9 months prior to her death, she was due to have a barium enema to confirm a 'mass' or lump in her abdomen but it was cancelled so cancer never confirmed.

Now, someone is refuting her cause of death, denying cancer was there. They are saying that the symptoms she showed at the end indicate a severe infection, (having looked on the internet apparently ) and that she wouldnt have been able to eat much at the end and if she had - she would brought it back up.

So, I need to know if this is AT ALL likely, and if there are any research papers or whatever online that can back it up.

Please help - this is causing a real upset at the mo.

Who is "someone"?

Are you OK? Sounds upsetting x

excess CO2 on the blood could have a variety of causes. The most obvious would (I think) be that her respiratory system and/or her heart wasn't working well enough to exchange the CO2 for O2

But I am not a doctor.

Offhand I can't think of a link between CO2 and a cancer, other thanthe fact tha cancer cells divide rapidly , need lots of energy and getting that energy makes CO2. The two things could, I think, be separate issues.

Had the tumours spread from the colon to her lungs?

No, its over 5 years ago, thats the problem. No autopsy done - no real need.

The intimation is that, on a weekend visit to my Mums (she was in residential care for the 9 months prior to her death) she picked up an infection because she was rushed into hospital with 'apparent' pneumonia (care home's story but we are less inclined to believe them on that score). On initial examination nurses pinpointed the 'mass' so it must have been sizeable (is being suggested this was constipation), and the lack of CO2 in her blood. She then went on to have a stroke in A & E. She died about 9 days later. Consultants during those 9 days said that it had to be cancer (again, no diagnostic tests carried out).

Thanks MB, I appreciate you answering such a difficult thing.

No idea. No formal diagnosis made of cancer.

Oh, sweetheart - wish there was something I could do to help Email me if you need to - so sorry I've not been around much lately x x x x

If she had pneumonia then her respiratory system would be very affected, and she would not be clearing the amount of CO2 from her system that she should (sorry if it is tactless, but did she have bluish lips?).

It is not uncommon for people with cancers to get things like Pneumonia. They two things would be unrelated, except that pneumonia often strikes when you are otherwise not very well IYSWIM.

Oh im alright really, but my Mum is very upset at the suggestion that a visit to her (unclean?) house caused her Mothers demise.

I just want written/internet 'proof' that I can print and give to her so she can pass it on and say "er actually, you are talking shit".

If you nan was in the later stages of cancer should would have been very ill and would be more prone to a whole range of things that most of us would shrug off.

Pneumonia used to be called the 'Old man's fiend' since it tended to carry them off fairly swiftly, causing less pain etc than them dying of some other cause.

She did seem to. Her breathing was quite laboured, and, she was sweaty in A & E.

She was in a slightly 'upright' position, nad her head slumped forward so you could see her head 'nod' with every gasp.

The blood vessels in her temples were very pronounced which made me think she'd had a stroke (probably no actual link), but doctors did actually state later that she had indeed had a stroke.

Can you get a bacterial type pneumonia? (sorry very ignorant to this type of thing - i only do minor ailments).

So, could she have eaten food at that stage, and kept it down, im not talking huge amounts? (I mean the week before?)

I would have though unliky, it depends on the tumour, where it was, and where it was growing IYSWIM.

If her bowel was blocked I wouldn't have thought she would have been eating much, but I'm not a medic.

There could be huge variation from patient to patient.

she'd been mostly having liquid meals for a large part of the 9 months prior at the care home, due to her 'constipation'.

The mass was her upper left.

Anyone have any links to any studies or research or anything please? I have no clue where to start or what is relevant.

Yes, but only because she feels her sister is accusing her of effectively killing her mother. They love each other to bits, and loathe each other in equal portions. My mother, i think, has been depressed for many many years. She has a persecution complex and feels that everyone's actions, are done purely for the purpose of upsetting/spiting her.

She would never do the counselling thing though. Crikey, she wont even take paracetamol and ibuprofen at the same time, even though experts say its safe to, because you know, it just doesnt seem right....

I want this stuff, to reassure her, and give her some ammunition to give back, in a calm measured way because its possible she could be blowing this out of proportion. I have wondered whether her sister feels that the medical profession let their mother down, rather than her sister. Curiously, she was the one that vetoed the barium enema as it was deemed 'unnecessary'.

I really feel they could fall out irrecovably over this, because of a misunderstanding. They have had a few bust ups already this year.

If there was an infection (other than the suspected pneumonia, which explains the excess CO2) then the C.O.D. would most likely be listed as septicemia, even if just as one of multiple causes.

As MB said, cancer patients are unfortunately prone to infections, especially chest infections.

Thanks St G.

Do you know anything about the ability to ingest food in late stage bowel cancer?

I don't see any reason why she would not have been able to ingest food. Her cancer could have progressed considerably in terms of metastatisation without the primary tumour having become large enough to block her bowel. My brother was diagnosed with stage IV bowel cancer (multiple tumours on the liver) without having had much in the way of symptoms from his primary tumour (he went to the doctor at the first hint of a problem and was diagnosed within a few days).
He never lost his appetite - and I have known others with late stage bowel cancer who were the same - also my Dad who died in an operation to remove a 15lb tumour from his abdominal cavity was eating normally up to the end.
I don't think this issue is about what your Nan actually died of is it? It is about who in your family is feeling guilty about something relating to her care and trying to push it off onto someone else by acccusing them. After my Dad died my uncle (who wasn't even in the same country and knew nothing about Dad's illness or treatment) went ballistic, trying to insist we sued the hospital for killing him etc etc. He had his own reasons to feel guilty and was displacing his grief with anger over the nearest available target. It sounds like this is what your aunt is doing. Maybe deep down she believes that it was her fault for not insisting on the barium enema.
You won't convince her because it is impossible to use rational means to disabuse someone of an irrational belief. You need to concentrate on helping your mum to realise that she doesn't have to take responsibility for your sister's unfounded accusations. As long as she knows the truth herself nothing else matters.

Hi VVVQV - Sorry you are going through this. My DHs first wife died of non-specific primary cancer which strongly featured bowel cancer and died of pneumonia as, as has been stated here, once the cancer has done it's worse, your immune system is shot and any opportune infection is going to get you.

Can I suggest you or your mum talk to Cancerbacup, they are really good and they will be able to answer your specific questions - their number is 0800 100 1234

Oh rosa thank you for sharing that with me.

You are right, and that is my Mother's assessment. Her sister was out of the country when rushed into hospital and had been for some weeks. (She spends large chunks of the year on the other side of the world). My Mums sister spent many many years molly-coddling her mother, and perhaps making her reliant on her, and then, decided that she couldnt cope with her and insisted on her going into a private care home (when, if having been diagnosed properly, she could have got appropriate medical care in a nursing home).

MY Mother is in no doubt it was cancer. She holds her sister 'responsible', i suppose, for not getting diagnosed, and therefore having no palliative care, or proper nursing care, and basic pain relief. She is very upset at being apparently accused of being negligent and thus culpable for her Mothers death, which, one way or another was always going to be from cancer.

So very very

I might give my mum that number Tinker, thank you.

oh god, vvv, what a nightmare for you.
sometimes families mess things up so much between themsleves don't they?

I think there is alot of guilt and resentment going around, your Auntie must feel bad that she blocked the diagnosis and your mother is an easy target...
I feel so sorry for you and don't know what else you can do, but i do know that pneumonia is a killer when you are old and immunity is low, especially with cancer. My mum dies of it about a week after she had been diagnosed wth cancer, and it was a nicer way to go to be honest i think...

not sure hwat i am trying to say apart form, have a bloody hug and hope it settles down, you don't have to fix it for them...you do know that, don't you?
{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Thank you MrsJS. I usually stay completely neutral in these things, much to my mother's chagrin. However, this is so utterly ludicrous (assuming my Mother's persecution complex hasnt muddied the waters...), that I just want to give her something to hand to my aunt and say "LOOK - I looked on the internet and it said THIS".

Then my aunt can deal with her issues, and my mum can continue to not deal with the grief over her mother's death the way she always has/hasnt done

But would a simple piece of paper sort it out for her, really?
I would have thought it wouldn't really make alot of differnece.

we laugh in our house about not agreeing with research (like in one of those unmentional threads here...), but if it doesn't suit how you believe the world to be..then you find a reason not to believe things.
So, whay don't you go and have a lovely hot bath and try to think of something lovely
(don't want that to sound patronising.. just kind }

I know, but, its something tangible for my mum I suppose.

Thank you. I know you are being lovely, dont worry