Homeopathy... Anyone had any experience... saw one today and she said something rather strange....

[poppiesinaline]

she noticed that my children had long curly eyelashes and asked if someone in the family in past generations has ever had TB?

Apparently, if someone in the family has had TB, someone in the 2/3 generation later will have long curly eyelashes

Just rather odd I thought..... What on earth has curly eyelashes got to do with a lung disease!?

SM - so why else do you think I asked? What's my sinister ulterior motive? I realised it might sound rude, if you read my post I said as much. Change "do you trawl the net" for "does one trawl the net" and make it impersonal. I appreciate you taking the time to answer nevertheless.

I don't agree with your distinction of efficacy vs effectiveness as being the reason why you can't measure effectiveness. When a client comes to a homeopath I think they have a pretty clear idea of WHAT they want to change, otherwise, why bother? So it's pretty easy to make a list of possible changes to be acheived. You wouldn't go saying your baby can't sleep and hope as a change after your baby takes the pills something like you winning the Lottery. It will be the baby sleeping better or something related to that. So why would it be difficult to make such a list of possible outcomes and then measure them? My guess would be that the homeopath would listen carefully to what you're telling him/her and then declare that effects X,Y and Z are due to the pills. Good communicators, I grant them that.

Prufrock - I believe the psychoanalyst worth their money will have done some more training into their profession that will help them get to a diagnosis. Anyway, who said I'd trust a psychoanalyst any more?

As for the remedies being tailored for individual pateints and all that...How come all ages and sizes get arnica for similar things?

SM - just to clarify, I wasn't implying you're pretending to be a doctor, just that research comes in all forms it seems, and even the said so-called doctor was claiming to do scientific research.

It takes 4 years (bloody difficult) training to become a homeopath. Homeopathy is offered as a degree level course. A quarter of the course is conventional anatomy/physiology. Evidence of CPD is required to maintain registration.

If you want to disagree with homepathic principles then fine. I can fully respect that. But don't tell me that homeopaths have not done training to allow them to get to their diagnosis, or dismiss them as quacks.

And arnica is a specific remedy that works for bruising - because it causes bruising if taken in large amounts. Bruising is a fairly specific thing to fix. Having said that,arnica shouldn't actually be used as much as it is - it's actually only indicated for soft tissue trauma after injuries, particularly where the patient is in shock, or professes to be OK when quite clearly not and wants to be left alone. For injuries to bones symphytum is more effective, and for deeper injuries, particularly after surgery, Bellis is often better. Oh and Hypericum should be used if the skin is broken and for crush injuries.

both my Lo's have long curly eyelashes and my Grandfather had TB.

Prufrock - if you read my post again I didn't say homeopaths didn't do training, I just queried they did training in psychoanalysis to the same extent as psychoanalysts. It was you who compared homeopaths' diagnostic skills in dreams to those of psychoanalysts'.

I had no idea that homeopathy can be done as a degree course in the UK. I know in another countries you have to be medically qualified first and then do homepathy training - which I find difficult to understand, but there you go.

I didn't set out to offend you (I gather now that you are a homeopath) but when you make claims to the scientific nature of homeopathy you musn't be too surprised if someone asks what those are. I won't be surprised if I don't get any answers.

How does Arnica cause bruising when taken in large amounts? How do you "take" it? Do you apply it to skin? These are genuine questions but I'll understand if you're pissed off with me and don't want to talk any further.

Diva - did your grandfather have TB before or after he had his offspring?

friend of ours' specialist paediatrician had her looking at photos going back through the generations for hooded eyes as an indicator of a genetic heart condition....

BONKERS EH??? WHAT A LAUGH....IDIOT.

Oh, sorry, because he is a specialist medical doctor working in the NHS it's ok is it all makes a lot of sense.

I am great believer in most alternative therapies BUT you wouldn't get plastic surgery without checking someone's qualifications would you? Or if you didn't feel safe with them. Unfortunatley there are lots of bonkers folk out there and a lot of them are attracted to alternative and 'holistic' therapies. Also different treatments work for different people and disorders in different ways! Reflexology is great for some, not so for others. Likewise all the other treatments. You have to find one that suits you - just like hairdressers.

I swear by arnica cream and homeopathic pillules too - great for shoock and bruising.

Sophable - the reason it makes sense is probably because there's always a body of evidence to back it up. Stuff published in medical journals that are peer reviewed and could be replicated. Maybe there is something about TB and curly eyelashes - if I read it in a peer-reviewed journal I might believe it. Meanwhile, bonkers.

hi cristina was in debenhams cafe yesterday and thought of you!

All homeopathic remedies are "proved" ie taken in pure form by lots of healthy individuals and the effects on the body noted. Arnica is derived from the Arnica Montana plant and when provers ingested the plant (sorry, not sure whether it was leaves or root) it caused the provers to have sore, bruised feelings all over the body - amongst other things.

Ingesting the raw plant can cause intestinal bleeding and liver damage. Tinctures of the leaves have long been used by herbalists to ease bruising and soreness - homeopaths simply take the dilution further. The leaves contain a chemical called helenalin which is accepted by the orthodox medical community as an effective topical anti-inflammatory

Interesting this about proving homeopathy. I can understand and belive about the plant but we're not talking herbalism here but millions of dilution into nothingness. That bit is the one I don't get.

Sophable - shame Debenhams cafe doesn't have as many toys as they used to. Now DD is old enough to have played with them. She's scared of the rocket.

I forgot to mention I once took part in a homeopathic trial. It had all the hallmarks of a proper clinical trial. I don't think it was ever published, I looked up the authors' names for a few years after. It was about migraines.

I am not sure - homeopaths correct me. Is it not that it works by cellular osmosis. So no matter how tiny the active component, your cells change chemically as the ingredient passes through? After all, we can effect mental/physical changes within the body by working off of a recipient. Intention is the key. It is proven that energetic changes occur within a person when another person has directionasl intention. we all resonate at particular frequencies, these frequencies can be altered by various treatments. In 50 years time they'll probably figure out that's why mobiles cause problems - they alter out natural frequencies in a way that doesn't suit our make up!

Please excuse my spelling and grammar - it appears that I gave birth to a part of my brain when I delivered my LO!

I am really enjoying reading this thread....just thought Id speak up for all the people reading but not joining in ...its called something on mn but at this time cant think...something like ..lurking???

prufrock I think you are in the know of all this - my old homeopath in London (dont live there anymore) prescribed drops for 'completely shagged adrenal glands'called adrenal plus - do you know if I can buy some more as I feel the same symptoms again and cant find any mention of it on the internet and the new homeopath doesnt use them/heard of them.

spotted this thread in the active convos and was delighted when I discovred you were the OPer Poppies

you know my feelings about homeopathy,dont you? Let's chat on msn some time about it all....

xxxxx

Christina - I didn't mean to suggest you had any kind of ulterior motive, I'm sure your curiosity is genuine - i just meant that it sounded like you were having a bit of a dig.

Also, you are right that effectiveness can be measured, just in a different way. The difference is that in RCTs the outcome measure has to be the same for everyone. Take your example of getting your baby to sleep. An RCT might say the treatment is effective if all babies in the study are sleeping 20% more hours a night than they were before. Whereas with effectiveness, people's subjective experience is more important. You might consider the following statements in measuring the outcome:

-My baby is sleeping an hour longer but then won't go back to sleep after she wakes
-My baby is sleeping an hour longer but wakes hysterical
-My baby is sleeping the same total number of hours as before but now it's all in one stretch whereas before she used to wake frequently

You get the idea

SM - no reason why you can't code those outcomes and measure differences between groups. As I mentioned, I remembered that i took part in an RCT about 10 years ago. I don't know if I had the placebo or the homeopathic pills for headaches, but the study was conducted like a proper trial (thereby I answer my own question about how do you research homepathy), so at least 10 years ago people hoped that questions could be answered in the classical way, by conducting studies. I can only assume that there just isn't any measurable difference between placebo (good enough on its own) and homeopathy - or else we'd see more of these trials and the accusation of quackery would be laid to rest.

Furcoat - I loved the scientific terms of shagged adrenal glands!

Rumpel - I never heard of the theory you put forward there but there just isn't any active ingredient to seep through those molecules - apart from water and a bit of sugar and a bit of chemicals that makes up the pill coating.

I am enjoying this discussion too. I'll catch up tonight.

Christina -yes RCTs have been done on homeopathic remedies. But many people feel that the results from such trials are not meaningful because homeopathy does not suit the types of measure traditionally used by such studies. Of course it would be possible to code effectiveness outcomes - a scale for this type of measurement does exist and has been used on a small scale. But it would require the scientific community to get their heads round a whole different way of thinking in order to be accpeted on a wider basis.

For the people who believe that homeopathy doesn't work, is unprovable, is bogus in some way, is unscientific - can I just ask what is it that concerns you?

Are you concerned for the people who use it and don't get the result they want?
Does it just bother you that something you can't understand may work for some people?

I've used homeopathy for myself and my children. I understand the basic principle but beyond that I couldn't tell you anything about how it works. Some things have worked, some haven't.

I also use conventional medicine. I've used antibiotics successfully in cases where homeopathy has failed to clear up an infection.
But I've tried cough medicines for my children which don't work, Teething gels which are next to useless because they lick them off and creams for eczema which have done nothing for my son. All of these products have been trialed by parmecuetical companies and passed.

The homeopaths I know are not out to prove anything, just treat people, often successfully. So why are people always out to disprove them.
You use the best treatment for the condition. What's the problem?

We have a homoeopath friend who treats ds2 free. He has pills to build up his immune system so that colds & 'flu stay away, also stuff to help his body keep the tumour small. I don't know about the latter (except that we haven't had tumour growth on the past few scans) but he's certainly been more bug-free since treatment. No placebo effect there, as ds2 neither knows nor cares. I say try everything, including conventional meds.

I don't know about the long curly eyelashes bit, but there are things in mainstream science about what our grandfather's ate and how it has an effect on our long-term health now - that's enough to make your hair curl if you don't understand it.

Got rogue apostrophe-itis

Ah, that's because your great, great, great grandmother ate too many courgettes!