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HV wants to give MMR and DTP at the same time. Is this normal??

37 replies

coppertop · 13/06/2004 13:37

The HV has sent an appointment for ds1 to have his MMR booster and his 4th set of DTP immunisations at the same time. This seems like a hell of a lot to give to a young child all at once. Ds1 is nearly 4 years old and autistic.

We haven't even made our minds up yet about any of these vaccinations and didn't think we'd be expected to have them all at once. Ds1 had a bad reaction to the whooping cough element as a baby. He stopped breathing exactly 6 hours after the first DTP. He was given the second set while under observation in the hospital as a precaution and the same thing happened again. He was given the third set without the whooping cough vaccine and had no problems so we were told that this was probably an allergic reaction. As you can imagine, even though ds1 is now older we really don't want to take any more risks with him.

Although I'm as certain as I can be that the MMR didn't trigger his autism, I don't want to do anything that might tip the balance IYSWIM.

I'm hoping to speak to the HV tomorrow. In the meantime can anyone tell me if it's common practice to give all of these immunisations at the same time? Also, does anyone know what the chances are of ds1 having a similar reaction to the DTP immunisations? TIA

OP posts:
tamum · 13/06/2004 13:44

It is common practice, coppertop (at least that's how it's done here), but I can competely see why you're concerned. Even though I'm basically pro-immunisation, in your situation I would hesitate to give the whooping cough element. My guess is that they're all done together for admin reasons, but also because, if you don't have any real concerns, it's nice to get all the jabs over and done with at one go. I can't see how they could possibly object to spreading them out in your case.

essbee · 13/06/2004 13:55

Message withdrawn

dinny · 13/06/2004 14:19

Surely there's no reason to give them at the same time except it saving time for the HV/nurse? I'd personally arrange two visits if I was going to have boosters. Which I probably won't anyway.

Hopefully your HV will be understanding and talk through your options, Coppertop. Good luck.

twiglett · 13/06/2004 16:14

message withdrawn

Jimjams · 13/06/2004 18:01

ahhh no I try to keep out of any threads that mention the MMR these days

The only thing I will say is that if you give DT AFAIK it always contains thimerosil. I'd read Walsh's work on metallothionein and autism before giving him thimerosil.... (search on google- or email me - I have a very easy to read interview with him that I downloaded from somewhere but no idea where!). He talks about MMR a bit on that as well. I may take a while to send it back though- PECS course this week.

Could you get an antibody titre? then you would know whether he has immunity at the moment anyway.

it is standard practice to give the whole lot at once in the case of pre-schoolers.

zebra · 13/06/2004 18:20

Probably best to keep your blood pressure down, Jimjams. .

I need to troll back thru the old threads and get my brain around which DTP (?DTaP?DTwP?) does or doesn't have thimerosol, now.

AussieSim · 13/06/2004 18:32

It is not normal here in germany. DS had his MMR recently but not the DTP that was due/overdue. The Ped scheduled it for as late as possible afterwards, but 10days before we fly home to Oz. She is v careful though - DS had no vaccinations at all till he was 4mths.

Jimjams · 13/06/2004 18:47

lol zebra

DtaP is thimerosil free......

SoupDragon · 13/06/2004 18:50

DS1 hasn't had his preshool boosters yet, depite nearing the end of his 1st year at school. I wouldn't be entirely happy with him having them all at once (I split the original MMR and Menigitis ones for that reason). I'd rather take him twice TBH. (mental note to make first appointment...)

Caribbeanqueen · 13/06/2004 19:20

Our nurse wanted to give dd 1st MMR and a meningococcal C (spelling?) at the same time - we were late with Men. C. I said no way and we are going back for it later. I think it's just to save their time.

eddm · 13/06/2004 20:14

It's not just done to save time, it's because the greater the number of visits required, the higher the risk that some parents won't come back to finish the course. We're only human, people forget, they are busy with other stuff, and it's inevitable that people will miss visits. Giving different vaccines at the same time lowers the risk that some children will be left unprotected.
Thimerosil now, that's a whole different story, and if I'd known enough about it at the time I'd have asked for DTaP. I heard (but don't know if this is actually true) that vets are banned from giving mercury-containing vaccines to animals. But the powers that be think it's OK for eight week-old babies!

Lisa78 · 13/06/2004 20:20

Whoa - DS2 had DTP along with polio drops and the meningitis all at once at 2 months, 3 months and 4 months
Should I have been better informed than blindly accepting the vaccines they gave him?

Jimjams · 13/06/2004 20:57

eddm the powers that be also think we should limit tuna intake during pregnancy because of the risk of mercury - but think its ok to inject 8 week old babies with thimerosil. Hmmm that's a consistent approach.

If your heavy metal detoxification system is working OK it probably doesn't do much damage, but sucks if it isn't. Uh oh my blood pressure is rising again!

I've just posted a report I've been sent re thimerosil and autism on the Special Needs section for anyone who is interested.

Jimjams · 13/06/2004 20:59

eddm I have often heard that thimeorosil has been banned from vet medicines for years (pedigrees are expensive) but I have never been able to find out independently whether that is true or not. sometime I'll have to find an ingredients list for all known vets medicines. If anyone finds anything proving or disproving that can they please let me know.

Right back to football.

eddm · 13/06/2004 21:20

Lisa, the issue with the DTP jab at 8 weeks, 12 weeks and 16 weeks (same time as meningitis C and polio) is that it contains mercury as a preservative. Mercury-free vaccines are available but they aren't offered; you only get them if you are clued up enough to ask. My ds had the normal, mercury-containing jabs but just to reassure you, he's fine and so are hundreds of thousands of other kids who have had these jabs. However, I agree with the many other parents who think mercury shouldn't be allowed anywhere near such tiny infants as a precaution. As Jimjams says, pregnant women are advised to limit their intake of tuna and avoid other predatory fish because of mercury contamination... (although the amount in the vaccine is presumably tiny, much less than if you ate tuna five times a week throughout pregnancy).

eddm · 13/06/2004 21:22

Jimjams, one of my friends is a vet, I'll ask him (why didn't I think of that before? duh).

twiglett · 13/06/2004 21:36

message withdrawn

Jimjams · 13/06/2004 22:00

couple of corrections In the states they do give thimoerosil- in the hepatitis vax given at birth. They don't routinely give dtwp though (althoguh I think it is used in some cases).

The issue with getting rid of mercury and autism is that when Walsh looked at 503 autistic children he found that 499 of them had some sort of problems with metallothionein - a protein involved in heavy metal transport. Other research has shown that autistic children have less mercury in their hair- the possiblity therefore exists that it's sat somewhere else in the body (brain??) From Walsh's work I would guess that my son has dodgy metallothionein function (as 99% of the autistic he looked at did) and therefore we have assumed that ds2 may well have this as well.

So we could infer from this that autistic children may have probems getting rid of heavy metals such as mercury, but whether they would have been autistic without the injection of thimerosil- well that's the question......

The govt says that DTwP must be safe as its been used for years, autism cases would have risen earlier bhlah blah blah. What they don't tell you is that until the introdcution of the MMR - at the end of the 80's ish DTwP was given over the course of the first year, not at 8, 12 and 16 weeks. If your metallothionein is functioning well then probably this won't cause much in the way of problems. If it isn't- ah well another autistic kiddy to ignore and play politics with the figures.

Of course none of this is watertight, but as in the case of the MMR there's enough in the way of hints that someone should be taking this seriously. Unfortunately they're not. And if you have an autistic kiddy you're too f knackered trying to survive to mount any serious campaigns. And if you did you would just be ridiculed anyway and labelled a mother who "wants something to blame" (err why? how would that help?)

Jimjams · 13/06/2004 22:10

Somewhere in health (autism aluminium and mercury or something I think) - it'll be archived by now- but somewhere I have posted a link to a radio show. It's quite long, but is an interveiw with a father and son team who investigated autism and thimerosil. I think they started out thinking that the parents were mad and it was baloney but then realised there was quite possibly something in it. They described the UK vaccination schedule as "the worst in the world" for increasing the risk of autism. They also had some interesting stuff to say about Andy Wakefield and the British govt.

Jimjams · 13/06/2004 22:11

Oh and the father son team aren't anti vaccinations or MMR - just thimerosil and other dodgy unecessary stuff in vaccinations

eddm · 13/06/2004 22:13

Hey Jimjams you aren't feeling a tad cynical about those in power, are you? Need a shocked and suprised emoticon!

eddm · 13/06/2004 22:15

sigh... or even 'surprised' with two rs... you'd never guess I write for a living, would you?

Jimjams · 13/06/2004 22:23

cynical, me? Now why on earth would I have reason to feel cynical? Actually to be honest the whole thing makes me angry more than anything. We tend to see ds1 as a bit of a tradgedy (lovely though he is - and big learning experience though he has been- it's still a tradgedy). It's ressuring to know that pretty much no-one in Westminster gives a shit.

Jimjams · 13/06/2004 22:33

Aha good timing...... The study refers to thw US- here mercury containing vaccines are still given routinely.

Almost everyone in dh's family has an autoimmune condition of some sort....

June 9, 2004
THE NATION
Study Finds Genetic Link Between Autism, Vaccines
A preservative once common in inoculations affected only one strain
of lab mice, possibly explaining the mixed results of past studies.

By Thomas H. Maugh II, Times Staff Writer
The mercury preservative used in some vaccines can cause behavioral
abnormalities in newborn mice characteristic of autism, but only in
mice with a specific genetic susceptibility, Columbia University
researchers report today.

The findings challenge the results of several large studies on
autism and bolster the fears of parents who have long believed their
children were harmed by the vaccines.

The fact that the preservative, called thimerosal, had an effect on
only one strain of mice could explain why researchers had found it
so difficult to prove or disprove a link to autism.

"The exciting thing is that this gives us a way forward in
understanding why we have not seen more conclusive findings on
either side of the fence, and how we need to design studies to pick
up gene-environment interactions," said Ellen Silbergeld of the
Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, who was not involved in the
study.

"I believe this has enormous implications for public health," said
Dr. Julio Licinio of UCLA, editor of the journal Molecular
Psychiatry, where the report is appearing.

"Showing that genetic background impacts on the outcome of
thimerosal exposure is a major breakthrough."

He added that the study clearly showed that there was a link between
vaccines and autism "for some groups and not for others."

An Institute of Medicine report released last month concluded that
there was no evidence to support a link and suggested that
researchers study other possible causes.

Dr. Steven Goodman of the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, a member
of the commission that prepared the report, said those on the
commission were aware of the research.

"It's a tantalizing little piece of evidence that requires a lot
more work" to overturn the "tremendous amount of human work that
doesn't find a clue of a connection," he said.

The researchers have not yet identified the human analog of the
mouse gene or genes that confer susceptibility to the effects of
thimerosal, so it is not clear what proportion of children could be
at risk from vaccinations containing the preservative.

What they do know is that the genes are involved in the immune
system and that they make the mice more vulnerable to autoimmune
diseases. Researchers already know that as many as a third of
families with an autistic child have a history of autoimmune
problems.

The researchers do not believe that all cases of autism - or even a
majority of them - are caused by vaccines, said Dr. Mady Hornig of
Columbia, the lead author. "Autism is a constellation of syndromes
that almost certainly has many different causes," she said.

But the link to thimerosal may help explain recent increases in the
incidence of the disorder, she said.

Thimerosal, which contains ethyl mercury, has long been used as a
preservative in vaccines. Critics contend it became a problem in the
1970s, when the number of vaccines given to children increased
sharply.

Since 1999, it has been removed from most of the vaccines routinely
recommended for infants and children. It is still used in injectable
influenza vaccine, though some thimerosal-free flu vaccine is
expected to be available this year.

Autism is a severe developmental disorder in which children seem
isolated from the world around them.

There is a broad spectrum of symptoms, but the disorder is marked by
poor language skills and an inability to handle social relations.

No cure exists, but many problems can be alleviated with intensive
behavioral therapy.

Between 1975 and 1985, studies showed the U.S. rate of autism to be
about four cases per 10,000. Between 1985 and 1995, the numbers
tripled to 12 per 10,000. But researchers now think the actual rate
may be much higher, on the order of 20 cases per 10,000.

Several epidemiological studies have failed to find a link between
vaccines and the increase in autism, and laboratory studies in mice
and other animals have also failed to show a connection.

But researchers may have simply looked at the wrong animals, said
Dr. W. Ian Lipkin, in whose laboratory the new work was carried out.

Hornig and her colleagues studied four strains of mice, including
one strain - called SJL/L - in which mercury had previously been
shown to stimulate autoimmune disorders.

Newborn mice of each strain were injected with either thimerosal or
a thimerosal-vaccine combination at ages corresponding to those when
human infants are typically immunized.

The doses of mercury were also comparable to those used in humans.

The three strains of mice with no autoimmune susceptibility showed
no effects from either type of inoculation.

But virtually all of the SJL/L mice developed a variety of problems,
including delayed growth, abnormal response to novel environments,
decreased exploration of their environments, abnormalities in brain
architecture and increased brain size.

All of those are typical of children with autism, Hornig said.

"This is clearly showing that there is an interaction of genes with
the environment," said Dr. Daniel H. Geschwind of UCLA, who had been
looking for genetic causes of autism and was not involved with the
Columbia study. "The strain difference is . quite fascinating. This
will clearly rev the debate [about vaccines] up again."

The researchers are now following up on these findings by trying to
determine what other genes, if any, may be involved in the mercury
susceptibility.

They are also working with researchers at Brigham Young University
to try to find families with a genetic defect comparable to that
observed in the SJL/L mice to determine whether they have a higher
risk of autism.

END ARTICLE

eddm · 13/06/2004 23:22

Jimjams, that is amazing. Potentially huge breakthrough if followed up. Now trying to remember if exzema and asthma count as auto-immune disorders (dh has both and ds has eczema)...