play date with unvaccinated children

[Carrotpuree]

My own view is that you vaccinate children unless health issues preclude it - I also look both ways before crossing the street - but I can respect another's opinion as I you never know all their reasons...however what about playmates who are unvaccinated? Delightful friend has children similar ages to mine (3 and baby) but both are unvaccinated. They do travel abroad with the children. Are my 2 DC safe, especially my DD who hasn't had all her jabs yet?

The parents of this girl didn't say "she has never had any vaccinations and we do not give permission for her to have it". They said "she has never had any vaccinations" and signed the bit about authorising medical treatment in an emergency.

We did not ever take this girl camping but Guide camping is rather different to school trips etc as you are essentially living on tetanus-carrying soil and any cut could contain it. I've always been advised to make sure I'm up to date myself for camping etc.

So presumeably that caused you no problems with her care.
If she had been cut you would have got her vaccinated.
Why was that a problem? I don't understand?

Tetanus doesn't just leap out of the soil - it's a risk in puncture wounds. Any cut can not carry tetanus. If there is lots of oxygen in the wound & it's bleeding nicely there's a vanishingly small chance of tetanus. If my younger two (who have not had tetanus - you can't get it as a single jab very easily) had a tetanus causing injury then I would expect them to be given the antibodies. If my eldest (who has had a tetanus jab) had a tetanus causing injury I would expect him to be given the antibodies as well. If I had a tetanus causing injury I'd be asking for the antibodies as well (& I have had tetanus jabs - like most adults not for many years & I only had that booster because I was at high risk of animal bites).

My none tetanus vaccinated children spend a lot of time in the country. Providing they avoid puncture wounds they have no need to worry. If they get one I am on the end of a phone line. They've been on outward bound type trips with school with no issue to the school (& I could name several unvaccinated classmates who have done the same).

I don't give a second thought to whether people around mine have been vaccinated and I think you can drive yourself a bit crazy worrying about all the diseases they can get (and I've been there when they were small!).

Uptake rates for vaccines are usually about 90-95% so in every class there's likely to be one or two unvaccinated and you'll probably never know who. I don't consider their reasons to be my business quite honestly - I think their parents are just trying to make the best choices just as I am. Also what we're really interested in here is immunity - there will be up to 5% of a vaccinated cohort who aren't immune just because it didn't take and no-one, including them, will know who that is as it isn't routinely tested for.

It's also worth keeping in mind that the biggest threat for a lot of diseases is from adults, like me and probably you, who either weren't vaccinated because vaccines weren't available (like the meningitis and PCV vaccines), or who were but immunity has since worn off (like the Mumps component of MMR or whooping cough). Unless you keep your dc locked up 24/7 they will come into contact with unvaccinated people fairly regularly, and even then there is a risk from carers!

None of us can have all out jabs.

What your DD hadn't had is probably the boosters. But the boosters are given because immunity after the first dose lasts for a number of years. Or because she is still likely protected from antibodies she acquired from you.
So, it should be safe enough.

I agree with all of that Youcannotbeserious.

You would never know which children haven't been vaccinated. Lots of people don't ever talk about it or say they wouldn't / haven't even if the conversation came up. Most people do vaccinate so you just have to hope for the best!

If she had been cut you would have got her vaccinated.
Hopefully yes, but Guides can be not very sensible (Oh I've trodden on something but I feel OK and I want to carry on playing this game so I'll tell the leaders at tea time that I hurt myself at 2 pm) and camps can be miles from hospital (Guide has cut herself badly with saw while doing the firewood and first aider has done what she can but she really needs an ambulance which is going to be an hour each way).

I think you are desperately trying to create some kind of peril when there is none.
My DD has been on many activity based trips involving camping a trekking. It's really not a big deal.
And has nothing to do with whether the child who has not had a tetanus jab is a risk to other children because they are clearly not.

Oh I never said they were. Only to themselves. But if you had to do a risk assessment for every activity, indoors or out, you'd be a bit more alert to this kind of thing. I have had the "injury requiring treatment but child does not say" and our campsites are all at least an hour wait for an ambulance.
Fortunately I've never had any parents complain about decisions we've made but lots of leaders have had. I'd rather avoid that. For example, I sent a girl home who arrived for an afternoon activity and evening campfire with no coat when the forecast was 5°. Parent insisted she'd be fine and the forecast was "more like 10". If the parent isn't there, it is up to me to decide if the risk is acceptable.

There was a reason that in 1880s children had to show their vaccination certificate to get into school, as the authorities wanted to prevent the spread of smallpox.
Why did the authorities stop children coming to school unvaccinated? Was is to prevent the spread of small pox - how would the other dc catch it if they had been vaccinated?

Smallpox does anyone in the world ever get this disease anymore?

Drspouse
I completely understand risk assessment thanks.

I'm just still not sure exactly what point you are trying to make.
A child without the Dpt/tetanus is not a danger to others.
The fact that it causes you an administrative headache regarding camping trips is obviously a problem for you but I'm not sure how it relates to an unvaccinated child being avoided at play dates.

It's entirely possible that I'm missing the connection but I'm not getting it.

Smallpox has been eradicated. No vaccine can ever be 100%. So for deadly diseases the best course of action is both to vaccinate and to avoid exposure.

My point about the tetanus was really that more people than you think need to know about your child's vaccination.

Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining.

Although, at the risk of seeming argumentative, that's not really the case in my experience. Every time my DD goes away I make sure that anyone in loco parentis knows exactly what they need to know. And the brownie group outings/trips you have done include a medical form which flagged up the tetanus issue, exactly as it should.

High risk tetanus wounds are usually pretty obvious & not ones you could ignore.

DH stood on a rusty nail in a compost heap which went straight through his shoe up into his foot. I sent him to minor injuries as his previous tetanus jab had been more than ten years ago (more like 20) & they said it didn't need anything & wasn't a tetanus risk because it wasn't deep enough (he had to yank the nail out of his foot - it wasn't that shallow!!)

Vaccinations are controversial. We are all fed convincing information about reasons to have them. However a good number of health workers avoid specific vaccinations. The best thing anyone can do is make an informed educated choice. Whatever theatres choice may be.

It's interesting Dr because the advice that my PIL have received is very different.
They are farmers and if anything they are exactly the sort of people who would need an up to date vaccination for tetanus.
However, they have both been told that there is no need to a jab every 10 years as they would receive it at A&E if they needed it anyway.

In practice, both of them would only go to A&E if they were physically dying from said injury so have had their fair share of cuts small or more severe injuries. It was seen as an acceptable situation by HCP.

Caprinha many parents don't read forms or ignore bits and just sign at the bottom. Given how few actually read the kit list (see above, see also the number of parents ringing me on the afternoon of a residential to find out what time the coach is when the form says they are providing transport) there's every chance parents leave things blank/don't read the bit saying we are allowed to authorise emergency treatment.

Love that's true of adults but they tend to suggest a booster for children who haven't had that many (or any, I'd imagine)

But in the absence of any advice to the contrary your actions are not up for question. You seek medical advice and act upon it.
Still not seeing a problem.
If a parent hasn't read a medical form then what is the problem?

Exactly how many brownies have died from a lack of tetanus caused by a parent falsely completing a medical form?

I'm still absoloutely feeling that you desperately want this to be a huge problem when it isn't.

I've never had my child go on a trip where you didn't have to actively confirm the date of the most recent tetanus or confirm it was given in the last 5 or 10 years.
If the brownies provide medical forms where they can simply be completely by one signature at the bottom then I would suggest they have bigger fish to fry than a missing tetanus jab.

They have this marvellous thing called a telephone these days.

When ds1 was taken by ambulance to hospital a couple of weeks ago, his respite centre phoned me. We were there before he was.

A tetanus jab doesn't need to be given within 30 seconds so I'm sure a parent could be contacted should it become a necessity.

The thing is the vast majority of adults are not up to date with their vaccinations either, as vaccinations wear off, apart from the numerous new vaccines that have emerged in the last few years that none of us older adults got.

On forms for Brownies/Cubs/outdoor excursions I just score through the question asking about date of last tetanus (since they haven't had it) and where it asks for consent and any other information I sign my name and write "no vaccinations". No one has ever questioned this.

My DD (14) has never had any vaccinations. I have not gone round telling everyone she comes into contact with. Several of her classmates are not vaccinated either. She is not a carrier of the diseases she has not been vaccinated against, so why would she not mix with others if she is well.

She has not had tetanus, has been on various guide and school activity trips. If she had an accident and needed it I would have no problem with her having it. I just felt that it was not necc for a baby and if ever the situation arose she could have one then.

My DS (18) had very bad reactions to his first baby jobs, so I stopped vaccinating him then and chose not to vaccinate DD. The only vaccinated child in our house is DSS who seems to get every cold going.