Anyone have advice on MMR issue???

[opinionsrus]

I know that this is an "old" topic, but I am a first time mum and TBH do not know a great deal on the topic.

Please can anyone tell me? Which is the greater "risk"? The MMR jab given at 15 mths, or the booster at age 4?

Don't really know if it works like that at all so apologies in advance if that sounds a bit dumb. If your child was going to have a reaction,would it be after the inital jab, if at all?

Any comments are greatly appreciated so many thanks in advance to those of you who answer....

would you also say jimjams that it is boys who seem particularly at risk of developing autism?

sorry it is insane is it not that we are so in thrall to the great god of science that direct experience is viewed as suspect evidence.

real scientists would view it as the best possible starting point for investigation.

Well there are several mumsnetters with similar experiences, but they tend to stay off these threads. A search of the archives would dig them out.

It is important to examine the children directly- especially when the numbers affected are low. There is a general pattern in these children and physiologically they appear to be different in terms of test results than other autistic children/adults. There are also other factors- chance of making a good recovery etc (and initial reaction) apppear to be brand specific (the "worst" brand is no longer used in the UK AFAIK).

So, jimjams, what do you consider are the things that might flag up a child as suceptible?

Official figures are that boys are 4 times more likely to develop autism than girls. My son's class has?? 6 children in I think, one is brain damaged following meninigitis, the rest are autistic; all boys.

Sophable it is symptomatic of how our world works now that we look for the physical proved evidence to tell us one way or another whether something is ok or not. Me personally I prefer to rely on actual life experience for most things as I believe you can't really know unless you've lived it as it were but with something like this everyone always knows people with experiences on both sides and then look to science for the definitive answer which isn't always there unfortunately. Sigh - did that make any sense??

For MMR as trigger the big one is gut problems, and Crohns in the family.

For being more vulnerable to developing autism broader (in no particular order)

1. being a boy
2. maternal rubella infection
3. IAG in urine- and in particular eating gluten and or casein if you have that
4. night blindness in one parent
5. family history of autoimmune conditions
6. sibling with ASD (that's a HUGE one).
7. lots of ear infections and antibiotics as a baby
8. if you have metallothionein problems: dental work during pregnancy' eating large amounts of tuna and other fish near the top of the food chain; thimerosal containing jabs.

There's more! But that will do!

oh and ropey sulphation system_ I really must read more on that- but it's difficult to measure unless you arm yourself with paracetomol and collect urine samples

hmm thats really interesting thanks.

\link{http://www.autismwebsite.com/ari/treatment/drwaringstudy.htm} more on sulphatiion here- haven't read yet- Rosemary Waring is at the Uni of Birmingham. Well respected in autism circles.

Bernard Rimland- quoted above the article died this week

try again!

this is slightly more readable! (especially after a glass or two of wine).

Thank you, jimjams. Ds is only 6 mo but it won't be that long before we have to decide for him what is best. Is there any evidence that waiting helps?

OH MY GOD I am SO stupid.

eureka moment.

Bollocks I need to go to bed as well.

(sorry sorry, just sound of link being made).

If you're breastfeeding I'd say wait until 15 months anyway- the measles component is slightly more likely to work than at 13 months.

Thank you. No, had to ffeed ds sadly.

Ah well it means that the measles bit is slightly more likely to work first time round! (don't worry after bfeeding the first 2, ds3 was a nightmare- had to stop very early- that's life!)

(I've had to ffeed two of mine and bfed my middle one and IMO it hasn't made any difference! )

So "boosters" - should we do them at 3/4 or wait? Am in awe at your knowledge Jimjams.

well not doing them at 3/4 would mean that if it hadn't worked your child would have no protection. So if measles etc in children worries you then I would have a blood test.

If I was doing the whole vaccination thing then I would say a booster before going to univerity/reaching (likely) childbearing age would be sensible as well.

I may give ds2 and ds3 a measles jab at 10ish (and a tetanus one as they can get a single(ish) one then - hoorah!)

I going to totally sidetrack from the OP, sorry.

JimJams, I respect your knowledge on this and now knowing that you have a scientific background I applaud your willingness to question the accepted wisdom of the scientific community, you are sadly too rare a beast.

My problem trusting the scientific community on the MMR is this- I feel the scientific community is very conservative and has repeatedly proven to the world that when controversial research questioning its sacred cows appears its kneejerk reaction is to ridicule and dismiss it without much (if any) honest investigation. Even the now sainted Darwin was subject to this treament when he published his theories initially.

I feel the questions I need answered before I can make an informed choice about giving my DD the MMR will not be honestly answered, which really pisses me off . I'm not willing to possibly sacrifice DD's health on the altar of some scientific dogma, so I've decided she wont get the combined MMR ever and until I've done some thorough research of my own I will not give her the separate ones either.

If you're still reading my waffle JimJams, I'd appreciate it if you could recommended reading list?

Might be off topic, but I wonder about the CP jab. I am totally against it for dcs, but my dds got CP a few days' after I came out of hospital with ds. Fortunately I've had it so ds had some protection, he just got a mild, atypical case. But had I not had it he would have been highly at risk of dying - 20% I believe - or having serious complications. Given that CP in adults is also really nasty, and that CP is far more prevalent than mumps or measles, and that it can damage unborn babies, isn't there a case for people in their late teens who haven't had CP as children to be vaccinated esp. women?

The reading list is hard because most sides are polarised- you need to read work like Taylor et al to understand why it's wrong (they don't examine the correct hypothesis). The Autism one conference has lots of papers (including Wakefields- and you can order CD's of the talks) but its obviously quite one sided. It should reference the other side though so the original papers can be traced.

Richard Lathe's book autism brain and environment is heavy going, doesn't have that much about MMR, but has a lot about the physiology of autism, very well referenced.

The biggest problem is that the work hasn't been done. The epidemiological work confirms that MMR is safe for the majority, the direct studies on children involve very small numbers, independent reports such as the Cochrane report (which the about the most independent report you'll get) recommends the use of MMR, but notes that safety trials were completely inadequeate.

You do need to weigh all this up against the risk of measles/mumps and rubella as well. And then consider the other alternative of single jabs!

I'd agree with immunity testing for CP! it's probably too expensive (given that most people have had it). I was exposed at the end of pregnancy with ds1- I had to push for testiing for myself (haven't had a clinical case- but luckily had immunity).

Anyhow I'm off to bed. Sleep tight!