Postponing vaccinations?

[Ravensmommy]

I know this is controversial subject and I have seen a few comments on other threads that, I fear, will be coming my way. BUT, I am slightly concerned about vaccinating my 2 month old little girl.
It all started when I read about the Mercury present in flu jabs while I was pregnant, I was already aware that I should only eat 2 tins of tuna per week due to the Mercury levels, so I can't see how injecting me with it would be any better than eating it, and if there is a limit to the safe amount of Mercury in a pregnant woman, I'd rather stay below it, so did not to get this jab. However I did see more pros to the whooping cough vaccine, so I did go for that. Since lo has been born, I have questioned my HV and Midwives about the vaccines that babies need in their first year. They didn't really answer many of my questions, so I took to researching the internet myself.
I obviously came across lots of different opinions and arguments; the most concerning being, the ingredients of some vaccines being Mercury, formaldehyde and aluminium; that they can cause developmental issues and autism. Also the fact that these babies are given all of these vaccines at such a young age, some 2-3 in one go. I kind of feel like no wonder the little mites suffer fevers etc afterwards.

A midwife did tell me that she had the same concerns as me when she had her baby, so she waited until her child was due to attend school before vaccinating her.
I am not against vaccines, they just concern me, so I have made that same decision- to vaccinate her before attending school- and my HV is treating me like a bit of a maniac. Telling me 'everyone' has their children vaccinated at this age. And she thinks it's best I do go ahead.

I have asked her to arrange someone to talk to me and convince me otherwise with facts that I am unaware of; in fact I have asked her, my GP, midwives and not one of them want to give me the time of day to explain why I should have her vaccinated next week. I feel if no one is willing to talk to me regarding this, why should I just have her done because they say so? If there were no concerns, why can they not give me the facts I need to put my mind at ease?
I guess what I'm asking is, has anyone else has the same concerns as me and not vaccinated /postponed until school age?

youcannotbeserious you are only presenting one side of the story (and with no supporting evidence), the other side is that unvaccinated children are at risk longer from diseases that are on the rise. If paracetamol does affect vaccine efficacy then Ocham's Ramon suggests we stop giving paracetamol rather than delaying the vaccines (another PhD here and I actually turned up to the logic classes).

bumbley one case after 28 years of no cases is a pretty serious development...as well as being an example. Why should the single vaccine have been made available when there was absolutely no evidence the triple was harmful and worries about uptake for the single? If I decide that vaccinating children in surgeries with white walls causes autism will you call me an idiot or repaint all surgeries a 'safer' pink?

Occam's razor even!

Booboos, you're being quite rude and a bit silly. Do you want to discuss this or are you just going to keep making jibes at people who don't agree with you?

'Serious development' is not the same as 'diphtheria is coming back'.

Concerns were raised about the safety of the MMRII (this was after the MMRI had been withdrawn a few years earlier) while the single measles vaccine was still available. The media went wild and people were understandably worried. It was a bad time to decide to withdraw the single measles vaccine thereby giving people no other option on the NHS. If the single vaccine was still available then people would have continued to use it and their children would have had protection against measles while the concerns were being investigated.

Off topic but there's now a Measles/Rubella jab (no mumps) available privately

I did single measles and single rubella jabs as have concerns about the MMR, not because I think it directly causes autism but I do wonder if it overloads the immune system in susceptible children and the immune system has recently been linked...

I wish the singles weren't removed only measles is left available as a single currently so mumps and rubella will climb unless they're reintroduced and the Thompson cdc whistleblower thing I'm sure will make its way to mainstream knowledge soon.

The menB reactions I expect coming from September will make parents cautious - I think it's a good jab to have but it caused an immediate floppy achey plus fever in my toddler given without any other jabs that a 2 month old I imagine it would be quite scary for plus they're combining it and advising to give calpol at same time because they expect more reaction symptoms. I expect a lot more reactions from September on and can't see why they're advising calpol knowing the research out there

But I think it will create a perfect storm of worried parents losing trust in vaccines, and tbh as a worried parent I would take my chances on mumps over something like meningitis

Booboos two - I presented a counter argument to the assertion that it was "scientific opinion" that alternative schedules are idiotic. I would disagree that a delay of a few months puts children in the UK at significantly higher risk from disease due to the rarity of these diseases, and I don't think that the data supports a massive resurgence of these diseases in the UK - the HPA data shows a constant low level in most cases and a small drop in some cases (like Men B). I also disagree with the idea that it significantly affects herd immunity (before that comes up) as jags are often delayed by a few months due to illness etc with limited impact on the herd.

I would agree that we shouldn't use paracetamol if it can be helped (and it frustrates my HV that people still use it prophylactically), one of the reasons why I'd rather give the jabs separately (less chance of a fever requiring paracetamol - it is needed in some circumstances!).

Kangaroos - I share your fears about the introduction of the MenB jab, as this is known to cause worse side effects than is usual for a vaccine, to the extent where as you say they're going to introduce prophylactic paracetamol. This despite all of the evidence showing it reduces the effectiveness of vaccines, and current advice to parents to avoid it if possible! I shudder to think the impact this will have on 2 month old babies who can't easily be safely treated for fever. I expect a lot of parents will start to question vaccines more if large numbers of children have serious reactions, and coverage may well drop. Couple this with the limited effectiveness of this particular vaccine and I have to wonder why this is being introduced in the first place!

I think it's a different version to the menB that they stopped in NZ and Australia, there could have been some problems with that and also they found they had too few cases to warrant a vaccine or something iirc

In the UK I think (could be wrong can't remember where I got this from) we have a much higher incidence of MenB and this is a new jab that has been introduced largely in response to a campaign by parents...

I really hope it's more effective... I suppose we'll know by next year

There was a study cited in the interim report from the JCVI that indicated that prophylactic paracetamol with Bexsero did not significantly reduce immunogenicity in comparison to its use with other vaccines.

That would make sense bumbley except that the menB is going to be given alongside several other jabs on the schedule... So the calpol will be having an impact on all jabs

But yes, when I saw its effectiveness and the stats showing that MenB cases were declining, I was a bit surprised that they decided to introduce it. Originally it was priced at £75 per dose and the JCVI concluded it would only be considered cost effective at around £3 a dose. Quite a gap!

True Kangaroos. If they are going to suggest prophylactic paracetamol with it then they would need to be giving it separately to the other jabs.

I really think next year will put vaccines firmly back on everyone's concern radar with this move

And calpol

Cue DM headlines
Sigh.

The media have a lot to answer for!

bumbley expecting you to come up with a decent argument is neither rude nor silly, it is a minimum standard for a discussion but if you find it rude and silly it may explain the appeal the anti-vaccination arguments have for you. A case of diphtheria when the disease was on the road to being eradicated is an extremely worrying concern. Nine other children and an adult were exposed to the disease but did not have symptoms because, wait for it, they were vaccinated. Had this child come into contact with babies on a delayed vaccination schedule there would have been more deaths...as there are deaths of babies from whooping cough for example.

While the media do have a lot to answer for in the MMR misinformation debacle, so do parents. The Wakefield paper was online and fairly easily accessible, it is incomprehensible to me that parents would decide to not vaccinate without having read it. It was short, easy to understand and quite blatantly rubbish on a number of counts. I still remember my jaw dropping the first time I read it at the thought that it had been published, not to mention published in the Lancet (editors should have been held to,account), not to mention picked up by the media.

Rude: "(another PhD here and I actually turned up to the logic classes)"

Silly: "If I decide that vaccinating children in surgeries with white walls causes autism will you call me an idiot or repaint all surgeries a 'safer' pink?"

The increase in whooping cough cases are due to immunity from the aP vaccine waning earlier than expected. Several papers have been published on this so I wonder why you are attributing it to children on delayed vaccination schedules.

You know it wasn't just Wakefield's paper right? I'd be interested to hear what you thought was 'rubbish' specifically.

is due

bumbley I am rude? You make a claim that alternative vaccination schedules are better than standard but don't bother to reference it - rude. I look can't find the references ask you for them, you ignore me - rude.

The comment about logic was in response to the poster who made reference to her PhD without providing any evidence for her argument. An appeal to authority is a fallacy, not a persuasive argument, something which logic classes teach you. This was sarcasm, not rudeness.

The white walls example was an argument by analogy suggesting that making a silly hypothesis doesn't entitle you to others taking time to disprove it with empirical research or accommodate it with a change in public policy; they may simply point out it is silly, the onus is on you to prove it is not.

Well clearly I am not! The whooping cough example was an example of diseases being prevalent to which unvaccinated children are more at risk. Let me say this really slowly: by delaying vaccinations and encouraging others to delay vaccination you are risking your children coming into contact with diseases. These diseases have many sources, whooping cough is around because of ineffective vaccinations and non- compliance by adults, measles is around due to anti-vaccers and previously almost eradicated diseases like diphtheria are now making a comeback.

Ha ha ha no bloody way! You refuse to post simple references and you want me to write an essay on what was wrong with Wakefield when the information is pretty much available everywhere?! But I'll tell you what, you write a detailed analysis of what was right about Wakefield and I'll do you the favour of pointing out your mistakes. I am generally well paid for this service but I will do it for you for free.

"You make a claim that alternative vaccination schedules are better than standard but don't bother to reference it"

I have claimed nothing of the sort. I suggest you re read my posts before you start throwing accusations around. Rude.

Measles is not around due to anti-vaxxers. Measles is around because concerned parents (most of whom had given their children all the other vaccines on the schedule so clearly not anti-vax) had no alternative to the MMR when the government decided to stop making the single available on the NHS. Bad decision.

"previously almost eradicated diseases like diphtheria are now making a comeback."

Again, one in case in Spain does not equal a 'comeback'.

What a shame that you're not willing to expand on 'it was rubbish'. A few bullet points would have been fine. :)

I'm not interested in getting into a bun fight with anyone. As I stated previously, I merely presented an alternative argument to the assertion that it was scientific opinion that alternative schedules were 'idiotic'. Everything I said is common knowledge in the respective fields, and can be found online by anyone sufficiently interested in Pubmed, HPA disease incidence tables, vaccine data sheets and JCVI minutes.

Kangaroo, I heard about the New Zealand version that was withdrawn, but I was thinking of Bexsero when talking about effectiveness. The interim JCVI report mentioned by Bumbley expressed concerns about lack of effectiveness (I think up to 3 years protection was mentioned?), and also what we have said here, that enhanced side effects may undermine the rest of the schedule though scaring parents off. Perhaps there is more data now to show improved effectiveness after a booster? I'm not sure. Ultimately we'll have to wait and see if it does anything to accelerate the reduction in Men B that we're seeing anyway.

Ah I see, I think cases peak at 5-6 months and then again as a teenager/student so I expect they'll just add a booster for teens if the jab remains on the schedule

Bloody hell 3 doses of paracetamol will be advised to "prevent fever" when the men B jab is given. The imms I have given DS he's only ever run a fever under 40 and not for more than 6 hours before its broke...

Wouldn't it be better to say don't medicate unless it hits 40 and only when it's needed, not advise 3 bloody doses?!

I def have a bit of a large chip on my shoulder about this.

Didn't we just link overuse of calpol to asthma and allergies fairly recently anyway?

Where did you read that KJ?

I think it's gponline.com

But I googled a fair bit, so could have forgotten

Meningitisnow are also saying three doses are advised. This is worrying as current safety advice advocates caution with two month olds, and a maximum of two doses of paracetamol. It looks like the limits of safety are being pushed to lessen the impact of the expected side effects, perhaps in the hope that parents won't turn away from vaccines in large numbers? The more I hear about this, the more thankful I am that my lo is too old to be offered it!

If there's any merit to the paracetamol + vaccines = less ability to detox heavy metals and other ingredients regardless of what side effects are reduced immediately we will see an explosion in neurological disorders as a result of it

I will be giving it unless it's proven unsafe in any way to any future kids however I won't be giving with paracetamol or combined with any other jabs