How important is the last DTP?

[wobblyknicks]

DD (now 10 months) had her first two out of the 3 dtp's at the regular time but she had a bit of a bad reaction with each (nothing too bad but don't want it again). Since then I've left the 3rd one, partly through snuffles she's had, the upheaval at leaving UH and not wanting a bad reaction again.

Now I keep get reminders from gp and parents telling me I should get the 3rd one done but I think its not worth it. Don't want to affect her health again, especially as she'll have to have MMR in about 6 months, and IMO she's pretty well protected as it is. AND she'll have another DTP anyway.

So is it really worth it?

depends. The dtp does require 3 shots to build up a fairly reliable immunity. (although diptheria is none-existent in the UK and she's past the worst age for pertussis anyway). I'm not sure about the meningitis and hib components.

Do you know what caused the reactions? if you leave a long time between jabs - and the reaction has been caused by tetanus antibodies (sometimes some maternal ones can be left) then the reaction can be worse with a long gap as further antibodies are built up by the vaccination iyswim.

Id it really worth it? Obviusly I'm going to say no as ds2 (and baby to be) haven't/won't receive dtp at all - but I think its down to personal choice really. If you really don't want to give her another shot, you could ask for an antibody titre- that will give you quite a bit of info as to how well protected she already is.

Thanks jimjams. I've got no idea what caused the reactions but after the first one she was really upset (not like her) for a couple of days and got a bit of a bug. The second time she was upset and out of sorts for slightly longer and then got mild gastro - and then I got severe gastro. So all in all, I don't want to go through it again!!

I last had a dtp 5 years before conceiving her so could it be likely that she's have tetanus antibodies? Also, I had a bad reaction after that dtp, had flu-like symptoms (but I know it wasn't flu) and was in bed for a week - so could she have genetic bad reactions?

I really don't like the idea of giving what I think is probably an unecessary jab but still don't want to leave her less protected than needs be.

Is there any difference in the likelihood of bad reactions from each component? Ie, if its likely to be the tetanus that causes the reaction, does that mean if she just had the meningitus and hib parts she probably wouldn't have a reaction?

Sorry to fire off these q's at you but you are a bit of an expert!!

Thanks for the suggestion of the antibody titre, think I'll ask for that, then I'll know what effect the other 2 have had.

Thanks for all the advice, I know we have different opinions on immunisation but I really appreciate the advice.

We probably don't have different opinions on vaccination. I'm not against safe vaccination at all- its just that in my children's case case I don't believe any vaccination is safe given my kid's probabe genetic predisposition to autoimmune conditions, so they need to reeeeaaaalllllllly need a vax before I would let them have it iyswim.

Well the bad boy on the reaction front- in terms of reactions like seizures and high temp is usually the pertussis component. In the US (where there is a financial assessment of risk from each vaccine) the DT is deemed far far far safer the DTP. The toruble with the DT though is that it contains thimerosil. A tetanus dodgy reaction often includes a blister at the site of the jab. You would still have antibodies (usually last 10 years) but then most people would so that's not necessrily going to cause a problem (especially in the absence of an abcess/blister). Bad reaction have definitely been noted after the meningitis C jab- there's a book about one girls reaction called 'a shot in the dark' - very moving reading published by Jessica Kinglsey- can't remember the author-Mary something. Not sure how many official reactions have been noted though - its still a new jab.

Her reactions sound fairly similar to ds1's reactions to the dtp-hib- fairly common vaccine reactions. He had a mild temp etc.

I don't think you can rely on the immunity from 2 shots in the dtp's case- I do think the third one is required. Did you give Infanrix. That uses a different form or pertussis (aP) and the reaction caused by that is supposedly milder. Gastroenteritis could indicate a polio problem I guess. You could ask for that separately (it never used to be given with the dtp anyway). Or miss it I guess. Unless you plant to travel fairly off the beaten track polio isn't really a problem. No wild cases in the UK for the last decade.

I may have time to look up the stuff about the 3 shots- and the antibody levels after 2- tomorrow (not tonight too knackered) but antibody titres would tell you about your child rather than the population. Not sure your GP would be keen though!

Thanks jimjams - iff dd had the same pre-disposition as yours I'd definitely not be vacc'ing them so am with you there.

Thanks for the extra info - I'm not sure which one dd had but I'll ask the gp and find out. Think the best thing will probably be to go in and talk to the gp about what he'd advise (very rarely 100% agree with him, but its a starting point), and also about the titre and whether he'll do it, considering I think it might be a very good idea so I know what she's 'got' so far.

Thanks for the offer but don't put yourself out about looking stuff up - it would probably be best to see what protection dd's got for herself rather than rely on stats.

On another (but still connected) issue - have you got any opinions on when the MMR should be given? 12-18 months is a wide area and I've heard some people saying do it early and get it over with and others saying leave it late as possible, just wondering what you thought? Will probably leave it fairly late, as dd may have the 3rd dtp to be getting over if I go ahead with it.

I understand how you feel WK. Ds2 has had bad reactions to all of his. He's five months now and I wish I hadn't let him have the third without hospital supervision because I ended up there anyway. Its causes some sort of immune reaction with him and for that reason I'm going to delay the MMR until he's at least two and then ask them to give it to him under hospital supervision. What that usually entails is them going into hospital for twenty four hours and having the injection while there. Speak to your GP or health visitor and see if that's an option for you. I really do understand how you feel.

Thanks flip - I'll find out about that

It's a big decision to make for your child and I think every mum is worried about not making the right one. Ds2 develops a menengitis/septecemia type rash and a high fever. He hardly ever cries and after all of his injections he's cried endlessly for hours. The first time he was treated for septecemia with IV antibiotics and they stripped his stomach of good bugs which left him with a lactose intolerance for several weeks. He also has the reaction without the injections if ever he's got a bug and his body kicks in to try and fight it. The bruises under the skin are very worrying and can sometimes take a couple of days to go. But if my child got an illness which damaged him and I could have prevented it, I don't think I'd ever forgive myself.

Ds1 had a bad reaction to the first two lots of DTP. He stopped breathing exactly 6 hours after each injection. He turned out to be allergic to the whooping cough element so only had the D&T elements for the 3rd set. At no point did any of the doctors say that he would be at risk by missing out on the full 3rd set.

Thanks ct (and flip) - think if I do have any more I'll find out exactly which bits she needs and which are risky.

WK the MMR (well measles component) is much more likely to work if given after 15-18 months (before then there can be high levels of maternal antibodies). I don't know why they've changed the timing recently - especially as MMR given before 15 months used to never be "counted" as having been given.

Flip - I do know what you mean but for me its the opther way round. My first son was (I believe) part damaged by vaccines (finished off by antibiotics and herpes). Damaged enough to mean that he will never live an independent life. When I look at ds2 running around with his whole life ahead of him I just cannot bring myself to vaccinate him. If I vaccinated him and he ended up like ds1 I couldn't ever forgive myself. The only disease that scares me enough to think I may vaccinate him against that in the future is tetanus. But not until he's old enough to cope with the mercury. These decisions often in the end come down to gut reaction however much they can be justified, but everyone will have a different gut reaction depending on personal circumstances.

I think I'll leave that one as late as possible as well then jimjams - thanks.

Have finally decided to bite the bullet and try to arrange for dd to have the 3rd shot - especially reading twiglett's experiences. Just still have a couple of q's;

• Is it better to have the infanrix DTaP or just the DT? And can you have the DT without using thimerosil? Am a bit wary of the possible tetanus/pertussis side effects, especially as she's nearly 13 months old now.

• It seems best to me to space out the DT, Hib and MenC - is this the best idea?

Thanks for everyone's help - have nurse due to ring me back about it any minute - expecting confusion down the telephone!!

Also forgot to ask - I've been reading about the way the food you give babies helps their immune system and plan to get as much fruit/veg (with loads of iron + vit c) down dd afterwards to help her immune system - anything else that might help?

i left my dd the allowed 6 mths between 2nd and 3dr dtp jabs...
she was virutally perfect with no rection.
If you leave it longer than that you need to have the whole set again, 2 isn;t enough from what I gather, being as she has had 2 you might as well get her the 3rd to ensure she is protected, given that you believe it important enough in the first place.
Next tiem I will start it later for my next child.
we are not doing mmr here though dd has had measles and we will do single rubella jab later in the year.
phew...

AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!! No-one annoy me now, I'm in the mood to kill someone!!!

The nurse has just phoned me back and treated me like I'm about 5 for daring to question their methods of injections!!!! Sorry, shouldn't mouth off but I NEED to rant!!!

First she treated me like an idiot for leaving the 3rd one so long (sorry for wanting to look after my own child!!)

Then she categorically told me there was no such thing as the DT element without the P. When I said I knew people (you lot) that had actually had it for their kids she treated me like I was stupid and said that I/they must be mistaken!!!!

She agreed to giving the menc and hib separately but only after acting 'all confused' with me. She said "oh they're all given together", and I had to point out yes I knew that, but they are different injections and CAN be given at different times.

I'm babbling now but I'm FURIOUS. Hate being treated like a baby just because I want something differently from the norm.

Thanks for the advice piffle - the nurse didn't say anything about it being left too long, so we'll have to see.

Forgot to say, she's booked in for next Wed anyway but I may cancel that. We'll be seeing the gp first to discuss it and have dd checked over but not sure if that'll just be a pressurising exercise.

wobblyknicks, they are so aptronising at times aren't they???
I remember discussing the MMR with my H.V and she spoke to me like a three year old with this constant smirk i wanted to wipe right off her face!!!!

yep, don't they just hack you off!!!

I'm looking forward to having another baby but DREADING all this worry again!!

Good luck+++++++++

Thanks angeliz - it is all a huge headache isn't it!!! Wish I could rely on the gp's to give me all the info and respect my decision - isn't it terrible that people have to fight to get the best for their kids??

I find it almost unbelievable how unhelpful some surgeries are!! I have to say our surgery are absolutely brilliant.

DD had a bit of a bad reaction to her first vaccination at 2 months. I was debating whether or not to let her have the rest as I did not want to see her so poorly again, but on the other hand wanted her to have the immunity there.

After speaking to the HV who was incredibly unhelpful (she basically said "ooh she'll be okay for the rest" ) I decided to call my doctor and explain my concerns.

He was very nice and said to come into the surgery to discuss which I did and he advised me that the standard injection DTWP? contains Mercury as a preservative and also a type of Pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine that often causes a reaction. He suggested that DD has the Infranix injection instead which does not contain the Mercury preservative and the Pertussis is a separate injection.

This involved her having one extra jab, but all were given on the same day. I think the jabs she had were (1) Infranix (Diptheria & Tetanus), (2) Pertussis (Whooping cough), (3) Meningitis C & then (4) Polio - a live vaccine given on a spoon.

I would have thought therefore that you could theoretically have your DD vaccinated without the Pertussis vaccination as it can be given as a separate jab???

Maybe you could try speaking with your doctor instead of the nurse. It sounds like the nurse doesn't know what she's talking about.

Thanks preggiemum. The gp has to phone me back to arrange a time on Weds so I'll talk to her then. Is there a medical site with that info basically listed so I have something to refer her to if she acts like the mercury-free one doesn't exist (like the nurse did)?

I'll google to see if I can find anything. I'm sure there must be this kind of info available somewhere on the web.

If I can't find anything maybe I'll ask our surgery if they have any paperwork on the alternatives that they can e-mail me.

It really makes me angry when HVs, nurses etc treat people like this

Hopefully your GP will be more helpful that that awful nurse.

Thanks a lot pg - really appreciate the help.

Not a medical site, but gives some info:

here

Will carry on looking to see if I can find a more medical site.