Please help - I have a wild child

[Rae1973]

Hello everyone,

I am really hoping that you can help, I have a dd who is nearly 5 who I am finding unbearable at the minute, it has got to the point that I cannot stand being in the same room as her as she is so naughty, obnoxious, nasty and cocky, she answers back to ANYTHING I say and is constantly nasty to her 2 year old sister.

I am now at the point where I will give anything a try and have read that e-numbers can sometimes play a BIG part in this and I'm going to give it a try, the thing is, where do I begin?

Both girls drink quite alot of dilute orange during the day and I've just looked at the bottle and was shocked to find how many were in it, they are not keen on water and create for juice.

As for food, well, I have just gone through the freezer and flipper dippers, chicken dippers, fish fingers and morrisons hands and feet shaped potatoes also have e-numbers in them, so it is probably that these are not helping.

Are there any e-numbers in cheese? as they love cheese.

I do my bulk shopping at ASDA and would like to know what foods can be bought from ASDA without the e-numbers.

PLEASE HELP ME I am at the end of my tether with her (it doesn;t help having a DH who says it is all because she is 5).

Before I go, do they get any type of withdrawal symptoms and also how long before they leave the system.

Thanks

Rae

Rae, it's not all E numbers, just certain ones. Cheap orange squash has all the worst ones though - colours particularly.

I'll try to find a list for you of the worst ones to look out for.

OK - this is a list of ALL E numbers. The box on the right highlights which ones "may increase hyperactivity in affected children".

You need to make a list of all of those, for your own reference, but write down their proper names too (eg E102 Tartrazine) because sometimes labels show the name and not the number.

If you buy Hi-Juice (50% juice, no artifical colours, sweeteners or flavours) and dilute it about 8-1 that might help, although it does still have preservatives (E210-219) which are also suspect. Watch out for sweets too (esp Smarties, Skittles and other brightly coloured ones).

HTH!

It is possible to avoid additives but it is difficult. the ones most associated with behavioural difficulties are colours - but by making food yourself and simplifying it you can avoid them all. I don't give my son stuff that I wouldn't eat myself and so I don't give him processed food such as you describe. I'd rather give him a baked potato with tuna and beans. Or a cheese and pickle sandwich, or real chicken cut into strips and fried in olive oil with peas and potatoes. Or soup, or pasta in a sauce made with onions, passata, carrots and cheese. For drinks he gets milk or diluted fruit juice (never squash). I'm not a food faddist and he does eat biscuits and stuff, but I am very anti children's food - ie stuff I wouldn't eat! I think it's poor quality stuff.
But her behaviour may not have anything to do with her diet (though it certainly wouldn't hurt to cut out processed foods and replace it with fresh). When she answers back, what do you do?

Rae - so sorry to hear you're having a really rough time with your 5-yr-old. I don't know a great deal about E-numbers, but I'm sure you'll get some good advice here.

I was just wondering if there are some other things you could try to turn around your relationship with your dd.

I'm a real fan of star charts ... if I'm feeling very down with my boys' (4 and 6) behaviour a star chart can really help us all feel a lot more positive about it. We always stick the star chart up somewhere very visible, then we all get a constant reminder that there are positive things, even when you're going through a tough patch.

Anyway - don't know if this is helpful or not, but just wanted to post something, as your plea seemed to heartfelt, and you sound just like I feel sometimes with my boys. I hope you can find something to make you feel more positive.

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Rae is she at school yet? The reason I ask is that this would give you an indication if it is a problem all the time. If playschool or school say she is badly behaved then diet adjustments could help. If not then you need to look at the bigger picture and your relationship with her.

Christ I sound so up my own bum!

What I mean is that it sounds that communication is breaking down, and that you are losing control of the situation, believe me I am saying this from a bit of experience. We are looking after a little boy at the moment who is fine with some people and with his mum he is a devil, he hits, bites, runs away etc etc ad like you she can't stand being with him much of the time. As an outside I can see that she is making it worse by he reaction to him, she spends all her him shouting at him (understandably) and him saying no. He tried this with me and I simply ignored the bad behaviour but really tried to praise and reward the good (with hugs and kisses etc) in a vauge way this worked. If he ran away from me, I stopped walking and turned my back, I refused to chase him. He comes back to me now.

It is so easy to say, and please don't think I am saying what you are doing is wrong, but perhaps a family councillor could help you as a family find a way out of this mess. Otherwise it won't be happy. I know others had dealt with this sort of thing too, hopefully they will be of more help than me!

Thank you all so much for your quick replies.

I am finding things very very hard at the minute as I have also had a relapse with PND.

She isn't full time until Easter and as yet I have had no complaints or anything from school, apparently she is the model pupil and is coming on leaps and bounds with her reading and writing, she is far ahead some of the other pupils.

When she starts being obnoxious and nasty I used to smack her all the time but I have stopped over the past weeks as it wasn't making any difference whatsover.

I just tend to shout at her all the time, people keep saying spend quality time with her, but I don't want to as she is such a horrible child.

I get no support really of dh, all he seems to says is that she is a typical four year old, but I disagree, I think she should know better.

Would you recommend making an appointment with her teacher and asking her then or what? I really am at a loss and as dh thinks she can do no wrong, I feel like leaving them to it and moving away with my youngest.

Sorry for rambling

Rae, again might be coming in from the wrong angle,but if she is good at school (generally) and that it seems to be directed at you. I maybe she is 'punishing' you in some ways. Trying to push you as far as possible to see if you really love her Does this sound possible. If you are feeling under the weather this is impacting onto everythig and is no wonder why you feel so bad. It is a viscous cycle, and will continue and get worse unless something gives. It is so easy to say 'spend quality time with her' as yes this is what you need to do, but it will take lots and lots of quality time to make a real difference. Right now you sound on the edge and want an instant fix - hence wanting to get away.

I would suggest a few things, one make sure you have time for you, see your Gp to sort out the PND. Make sure they realise how you aare feeling and see if they could recommend a councillor. Secondly get your DH on your side, explain that you need the extra support at the moment, and that although he doesn't agree you are feeling quite desparate. Perhaps you and he could sit down and discuss what you should expect, you cannot expect perfection and there will always be fighting between siblings (my two are at it all the time). However you need to establish what you should expect. Thirdly to put it into practice, this is the hard part I would sit down with your daughter and discuss what you need to change (bit by bit) for Instance if she always plays up atthe dinner table, get an agreement about what you expect from her - eating nicely, using knife and fork, trying all the food etc - then start backing it up with a star chart and reward system. Not necessarily rewards like sweets, but time with you, like watching her favourite TV programme cuddled up on the sofa. Each little thing will need to be moderated in turn. But she should understand things and be 'reasonably' good. My dd is 5 in a couple of weeks and I expect her to know what she can and can't do. Not that she always does it, but she knows what she should do and she knows what happens if she is naughty (bottom step of stairs or bedroom, no sweets/snacks, sometimes a smack) She knows not to hit her sister aged 3, she knows she has to finish her supper, and she knows if I ask her to do something I mean it. Yes I do end up shouting at her, but we have a great relationship most of the time.

Rae, it sounds as if you have got into a vicious circle with your dd, exacerbated by the PND. I have a daughter who has always had tremendous obnoxious potential and I used to get into exactly this kind of head-on situation with her; when she was little she was generally a delight at nursery and primary school and saved up her worst for me, and sometimes I just couldn't be nice to her either - so I understand perfectly when you say "people keep saying spend quality time with her, but I don't want to as she is such a horrible child."

Is there any way you could make a huge effort not to rise to it when she is horrid, give her lots of hugs when you see her after school and make a big fuss of her - maybe arrange for your DD2 to be elsewhere after school a couple of days so that you can devote yourself to her? I know how hard it can be without PND, it must be much worse with, but as my DH used to repeatedly tell me "she's a child, you're supposed to be the grownup" and eventually we used to be able to turn it round. I never wanted to hug her when she was so horrible - and she appeared not to want to be hugged either - but hugging her definitely helped .

Your DD's behaviour isn't that unusual for 4 I don't think, and I always used to think with mine that because she had to try so hard to be nice at school all day it meant there was more emotion to vent when she did come home. Some people are just naturally nice and some are less so! (It still happens sometimes and she's at work now! But when she's the right way out she is lovely.)

Is your PND being dealt with or are you on your own with it? It must make everything seem so much worse - have you seen your GP? Are you on ADs? I hope you are getting sorted out.

Try doing the E-number thing too, unprocessed food is much better for them anyway, as aloha said, plus it gives you something else to focus on and think about (and it might even help!). Lots of luck. Hugs for you too.

Oh, and try telling her that it is OK to be angry sometimes, but not OK to be nasty to her sister, that if she feels angry about something she should come and talk to you about it, and if she still can't get it out of her system to go and punch the sofa cushions or something else squashy and harmless. (And tell her you love her too )

Haven't read through everything but I suggest you give your daughter orange juice that is diluted. Then you have no additives to worry about.

You need to start to take away your daughter's privileges if she won't behave. She's old enough now to understand right and wrong.

Only make threats if you intend to carry them out. Do not say she won't go to a certain party if you still have every intention of taking her.

Try positive parenting, rewarding and praising her good behaviour and ignoring the bad behaviour. Make her understand that you are unhappy when she misbehaves.

Make her sit on the bottom stair, when she comes back to you, take her back again. You must take 'charge' of the situation.

You can do it.

Rae - there was a thread a while ago under behaviour called 'yet another f***ing fours thread' which was v good. Sounds similar to your dd and there's lots of practical advice there. Sorry - can't do links but hope this helps.

Lots of good advice here Rae, just wanted to add my sympathy and to say I do know what it's like. The F*** Fours thread is here

rae, same here - there's lots of good adivce here so I won't repeat it. I have a very lively 4.5 year old and also went through the wars at that age with my oldest son, now aged 9.

I didn't suffer from PND, but I was having a very hard, stressful time (financial, emotional, timewise and workwise) when he was around 4 and 5 and it made me much less able to do all those 'good' parenting things. I couldn't believe how resentful I felt about him at times. When the stress went away, I was amazed how much my relationship improved with my son. So don't underestimate how your feelings and situation will affect things, that's my bit of advice.

AS well as trying to spend quality time with your dd, make sure you get some quality time for for you alone. Tell your dh that you must distance yourself from both your dds sometimes. You desperately need a break, it seems to me.

Rae, have a look also at this thread - anout kids being obnoxious after they start school - sounds a lot like yours!

Please do go the GP and get your PND sorted out. Having PND willmake it much harder to make changes at home. JanH right - you are the parent and she is the child. She is only four - a baby really - and shouting will only make things much worse. She wants your attention and for a child of that age, ANY attention is good and that includes smacks and shouting - that's how much they love and need you. Ironically, if her main interaction with you is shouting, you will reinforce her bad behaviour by shouting at her. IMO the only way to turn this around quickly is to ignore bad behaviour and reward good and this means giving LOTS more praise for any good behaviour at all - a BIG hug when she comes home from school and praise for being a good girl at school. Tell her you are pleased to see her. Set up star charts for the behaviour you want to encourage. Don't get into arguments with her. If you ask her do something, don't start justifying it etc. I am sure you can turn this around. I have found it really, really helps to drop the 'labels' - ie don't even think of labelling her as obnoxious, nasty etc (they are very strong words IMO) - think of her as needy or difficult at the moment or insecure - things that can be changed. Good luck and please start by visiting your GP and talk to you dh and agree that he can take over to give you a break - eg doing the nightly bath, having the kids by himself on Sat morning or afternoon so you can go to the shops or sit in a cafe reading the paper. We all need time to recharge.

Hi Rae - I started the other thread re. my little boy being so different since he started school.
In my case its definately been caused by my son being influenced by his new best friend (a few of the other mums who have helped in class have spoken to me about it) so Im concentrating on trying to make sure that he plays with a wider range of children (having others to tea etc.)
PLus the one thing hes always loved doing with me is colouring in (we lead a very exciting life here ) He loves getting the praise for 'staying in the lines'. For a while he wouldnt even do this with me but I kept buying new colouring books and crayons etc and then last night for the first time in a couple of weeks we sat together for about an hour and just coloured in and chatted and he seemed so much happier in himself - no tantrums etc.
He was a bit of a nightmare again this morning so by no means there yet - but hoping that we can build from this and turn things round.

Sorry i cant offer more advice at moment but if I come across the miracle solution will let you know!
Good luck.
Kizziex

There's another thing to bear in mind rae. The school day can be a long and exhausting one for a 5 year old, especially one who is trying so hard and being so good there. If she is difficult in the evenings, tiredness could be a big factor here. IME, tiredness in 4 and 5 year olds can manifest itself in extra lively, unreasonable behaviour, and if you dare to suggest your child is tired, they get even worse. What's she like first thing when she wakes up at the weekends? I find that quiet first hour or is often when my son is at his most thoughful and calm.