Measles - 6 month old exposure to unvaccinated sibling

[biggestregret]

I have a vaccinated 3.5 yr old and a 6 month old who obviously isn't. I also have an 11 year old stepson who comes to stay with us every weekend. His mother will not get him vaccinated. DP has asked her to re-think with regards to the current outbreaks and the risks to DS2 but she will not budge.

What should I do? Any advice? DSS attends a school where there has been 2 'possible' cases (not quite sure what that means yet).

I've asked my surgery if they can give DS2 an early vaccination but they say no at the moment.

TA!

Sometimes there are genuine reasons, like immune problems or bad reaction history in the family.

Some people are just a bit daft though, an anti vaxer actually gave me Wakefield as the reason she wasn't vaxxing her DC, yep that would be the guy that falsified research data and was struck off

You mentioned that your DSS goes to a Steiner school? Rudolf Steiner believed that measles (and other rashy diseases) would help children shed their "miasms" (something like an inherited bad spirit) and help them become "human"...

purple - nope, none of that applies to DSS.

Catherina - FFS - really ? . I'll tell DP this gem. I'm not sure if DSS's school is this extreme but, yes, I see there is a general ethos of alternative thinking there. Not my cuppa tea. Just to add another nugget of woo woo here - Ex-W is a practising KINESIOLOGIST (arm bender, I like to say). I've regarded this with a wry smile before but at the moment her views are impacting on my children. And that just ain't happening

biggestregret, I've pm'd you. Let me know if you get it ok.

Has she explained the reasons why she has not vaxxed DSS?

biggestregret - this is a three part series on Steiner education (which aligns with my experience of Steiner pupils, parents and educational scientists - my step mum was a professor of Education) - I find it scary

www.dcscience.net/?p=3528

Also, from this page www.openwaldorf.com/health.html

The article suggests that when a child endures measles it is "as though he or she has had a form of ritual experience."

"At the higher emotional and mental levels, negative forces such as greed and selfishness have also been expelled. So a child who has measles is afterwards less self-centered and more openhearted, and often more able to express his or her individuality. The personality becomes rounder and fuller, and more joyful and contented, as a step towards maturity and adulthood."

"Childhood Illness: Waldorf View,"

So, if you are concerned about a self-centered or restless child, perhaps you might consider exposing them to measles. Complications may arise, but it suggests that:

"Serious complications in childhood illness which produce permanent damage or even death are probably deeply founded in the destiny of the person concerned."

"Childhood Illness: Waldorf View,"

So, don't be alarmed if your child dies from a preventable disease because he/she is not immunized, it was probably their destiny. It clearly wasn't their destiny to be immunized.

www.waldorfhomeschoolers.com/childhood-illness-the-molding-of-the-human-being

Catherina I am deeply shocked. That is just awful. I've read your reply to DP and he has gone very quiet.

DP spoke to Ex-W again on the phone today and she will not shift on her stance. He pointed out that we have 6 months until DS2 can be immunised and therefore 6 months of restrictive access (including a summer holiday which DSS cannot come on if the status quo remains the same).

This is really upsetting me now. I can see how difficult it is for DP too and DS1 has asked when he is seeing his DSS again He loves him so much (and it is reciprocated). So....I rang ExW this afternoon and it didn't go well. She basically believes the risks of side effects from the vaccinations (autism & arthritis) out-weigh the risks of measles. That people with good immune systems, good nutrition and good sanitation like DSS will be able to fight off a 'raised temperature and a rash' and that DSS will tell her when he feels ill and we can avoid him then ..... I told her if that was the case he would be able to deal with the 'side effects' from vaccinations too and the only way we could be sure he would not get measles is from a vaccination. I also told her the MMR scare had been blown out of the water and I was insulted she was using that as an excuse as my brother is autistic (it pisses me of when people jump on that bandwagon) . The best bit was when she congratulated me on 'being brave' in ringing her. There was a load of other stuff too but I can't remember it all as she wound me up so much.

purple I have your pm - thanks - I'll send her all the links. She was very keen to tell me she had spent 5 afternoons researching a 'balanced argument' as the media had blown it out of proportion. She also said she had asked her GP about vaccinations and they said that they would be struck off if they didn't advise people to have them and this made her feel that there was some other agenda

I need a big one of these

It's not just a 'raised temperature and a rash' - She is clearly very misinformed.
Show her this.. Warning it's graphic.
antivaccinebodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Whats_The_Harm.html

Wow - Ex-W sounds a bit patronising. I am soo sorry.

Could you send the "big boys" (DP, DS1 and DSS) for a boys' day out so they can see each other?

Sending your way!

biggestregret, even if he was vaccinated there is no guarantee he would not get measles.

I can understand your concern but she is making the decision that she feels is best for her child just as you feel that you are making the best decision for yours. Chances are that her healthy son would come through measles with no serious complications because most children do.

Your baby could come into contact with other people who could have measles so I think it's unfair to focus so much on the hypothetical risk from this one boy. If you are concerned about the general risk of measles to your baby you could have your ds2 vaccinated early. I believe the MMR is suitable from 6 months.

biggestregret, even if he was vaccinated there is no guarantee he would not get measles.

but his risk would be reduced by 98% especially since her DSS attends a Steiner School.

That was in response to this comment Catherina:

"the only way we could be sure he would not get measles is from a vaccination."

fair enough B. 98% is not entirely "sure"

bumblymummy - I have checked with my GP and the immunisation is not available for under 13months. It is not licensed.

Yes I am focussed on her reasons for not vaccinating as this issue is causing a lot of distress for 2 older siblings, DP and me. Our family weekends together cannot happen at the moment. I'm not sure if you have a step family yourself, but that time is very precious for us.

The MMR is currently being given to children from 6 months in Wales so it is possible but it is usually just given as an additional dose to children considered to be more at risk - they still have to get the other two doses at the usual times. Maybe you could get it done privately?

Do you worry about your baby catching it from anyone else? You can't be sure of anyone's immunity status around you. Even your older son may not be immune. If you want to make the most of your time together I think you need to either decide to just stop worrying about it or, if you don't think you can do that, then get the baby vaccinated. Your step son is going to be out of school over the summer anyway - if you're worried about there being a higher chance of him contracting it at school.

Well this from the BMJ is relevant to this thread. Suggests that the measles cases in Wales are nowhere near as high as reported.

Catherina I know you like figures - am interested if you can cast light on any of it (genuine question).

as far as I have heard from the PHW website they cannot keep up with sampling/the numbers of samples that come in, but the last numbers published were that 300+ of 800+ samples that had been tested were laboratory confirmed. That seems like a normal number (I am sure every child with a rash/fever in the middle of an outbreak was reported and not every child with a rash/fever has the measles). I hope that they will publish things like complications in confirmed vs unconfirmed/suspected cases, as well as complications in unvaccinated vs unvaccinated. In general, the British are not so good with publishing those and the lab confirmed cases are also a bit hard to find at least while the outbreak is ongoing (the Swiss are awesome in detailing the metrics behind the outbreaks). We'll know more in a couple of months, I guess.

This doesn't change the situation of the OP much though. A child in a Steiner school is an almost proverbial measles risk (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21102363).

Is it possible to have a rash that looks just like measles that isn't measles? Even if not lab confirmed, surely confirmed by a doctor seeing the rash counts as a definite case, doesn't it?

many doctors have not seen a case of measles, or enough cases to make a reliable diagnosis. That is even more of a problem in the US, but real measles have been (mis)diagnosed as "a virus" (before the rash) or strep throat or viral diseases after the rash appeared. Certainly, in situations where there are few if any measles circulating, measles would tend to be underdiagnosed and in a measles outbreak, measles would probably be overdiagnosed.

How interesting. Hence the expression "measles type rash" I suppose. Meaning, doctor thinks it isn't measles.

I wonder how many cases there actually have been and how many there are now who are still infectious?

As you say, further data will be interesting to see.

The doctors managed to miss a measles diagnosis for the poor man who died.

Most measles outbreaks start with a misdiagnosis and I do think that measles complications/deaths are probably under reported. There was a death in a Waldorf school some years back (a teen with Down Syndrome attending the school) and they had initially not done a post-mortem, but found she had had measles when they looked after the outbreak was in full swing... Dr Bob Sears, who peddles his own "alternative vaccination schedule" misdiagnosed measles as scarlet fever (in an unvaccinated 7 year old just back from Switzerland, where measles are endemic)..

They do also assume that vaccinated children can't have measles. When I took ds1 in with a "measles type rash" (rang ahead), after being left in a crowded room, then a room with a baby (when I'd been about being in the crowded room) the doctor said it couldn't possibly be measles because DS1 was vaccinated. Now I find out that in today's money he doesn't count as vaccinated as he's only had one dose.

Yes, the man had been vaccinated so I wonder if that resulted in him not being diagnosed with measles. I wonder how often that happens.

What's an educational scientist Catherine?