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Wakefield: Proquad claims. Liar or incompetent?

234 replies

noblegiraffe · 20/04/2013 12:32

This just came up on another thread, and I thought it was worth wider publicity, given Wakefield's apparent continuing influence, and the current measles outbreak.

I was discussing whether 'vaccine overload' had any basis in science, or any evidence for it. (No, btw).

I was directed to the claim that giving a 4 in 1 jab against measles, mumps, rubella and chicken pox (called the MMRV) doubled adverse reactions. I found an interview with Wakefield where he claimed this showed that giving extra vaccinations at the same time was dangerous. He said:

"If you just take for example, MMR and you add in the varicella vaccine, the chickenpox vaccine, MMRV as ProQuad what happens is you double the rate of convulsions as an adverse reaction. So just adding one and not 999,000 but just one extra vaccine in, you double the rate of an adverse, a potentially serious adverse reaction. To the extent that that ProQuad vaccine had to be withdrawn. So the notion that you could give a child a hundred thousand vaccine antigens on one day is utter nonsense. And what is extraordinary, what is telling I suppose is that no other immunologist or vaccinologist or any other person with any credible standing has stood behind Dr. Offit and said yes, you can go for it."

2 points need to be made

  1. Proquad has not been withdrawn. It is still licensed for use. The advisory body in the US did amend their recommendation in light of the extra adverse reactions (4.3 extra febrile seizures per 10,000). ProQuad used to be their preferred injection for both initial and booster jab, now it is just recommended for the booster jab.
    www.merckvaccines.com/Products/ProQuad/Pages/recommendations

  2. Wakefield suggests that it was giving an extra vaccine that caused the extra adverse events (vaccine overload), however the comparison of adverse events was not between the MMRV and the MMR (4 vaccines versus 3) but the MMRV versus the MMR plus the chickenpox vaccine given on the same day (4 versus 4). Nothing to do with an extra vaccine, and he is trying to use this to make a point which simply isn't valid.
    www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm123798.htm

Now Wakefield still has an agenda regarding spaced out single vaccines (as recent headlines show).
Was he lying when he made these easily researched incorrect claims about ProQuad, or was he simply too thick to correctly assess the information widely available?

Now if he wanted to discuss why there were more adverse events to the 4 in 1 versus the 3+1, he might have a point (I'm not sure they contain exactly the same vaccines) but he didn't. He made a completely false point, one which is proudly featured on an antivax website.

Please treat anything Wakefield says with the caution it deserves.

OP posts:
magdalen · 26/04/2013 18:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CatherinaJTV · 26/04/2013 18:40

Beachcomber, my guess is the majority of people caring for children with gut issues and/or autism have never run a PCR and don't understand Dr Bustin's explanations of how the original PCRs in the Uhlman paper were contaminated (if not fabricated). They may have written on a piece of paper "measles vaccine strain in gut" or something like that, but that is not data - that is claim for which there is no independent verification. You may have the lab report, but anyone can write anything on a piece of paper and it goes poof under scrutiny (much earlier than Deer or anyone) -

from TRANSCRIPT--U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, GOVERNMENT REFORM COMMITTEE HOLDS A HEARING ON THE STATUS OF RESEARCH INTO VACCINE SAFETY AND AUTISM. JZSell--aa.33467.22; Fed Clearance Candidate ID 377077

WAXMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
...
But I wanted to get on the record some points about Dr. Wakefield's testimony because Dr.
Wakefield today testified about an upcoming scientific presentation in Ireland by Dr. O'Leary.
And in this presentation, which is going to take place in July, scientists are presumably going to
claim to have found vaccine-strain measles in the intestines of children with developmental
disorder.
And I hope to have a copy of that abstract. Do I have a copy of that? I do have a copy of the
abstract. And I want to make it a part of the record.
In the abstract, it states that the conclusion that the virus was vaccine-strain, which means caused
by the vaccine, is based on one nucleic acid, position number 7901. Now according to the
abstract, if the chemical at position 7901 is adenine, then the strain is natural measles virus. But
if the chemical is guanine, then the strain is from the vaccine.
According to this abstract, this difference can perfectly distinguish between natural and vaccine
strains of the measles. However, according to the Gene Bank website run by the National
Institutes of Health, this isn't true. So what we see in this abstract, from what we hear from Dr.
Wakefield, there's a real question.
Measles experts have told us that more than 10 natural measles strains have a guanine at position
7901, even though the abstract says that only happens in the vaccine strain. Well, if there are 10
natural measles strains that have that particular chemical positioning, then this theory doesn't
hold up. And I have the names of some of those strains. And I expect to even receive othernames, which I want to add to the record later on.
I want to ask Dr. Wakefield, are you aware if Dr. O'Leary has checked the NIH website
thoroughly before writing his abstract? And if it is true that position 7901 does not distinguish
between natural and vaccine strain measles, would it be fair to say that the conclusion of the
abstract remains unproven?
WAKEFIELD: The work was based upon a recent publication by Parks (ph) and colleagues,
which may well supercede what is published on the website. And in that study, they make a clear
distinction between vaccine and wild types of strains based upon that mutation.
Other questions on this will have to be referred to Professor O'Leary himself, who can't be here.
WAXMAN: Well, I want to ask you whether you know if Dr. O'Leary checked the NIH website
thoroughly before writing his abstract?
WAKEFIELD: I know for sure that he has checked the Gene Bank website.
WAXMAN: Well, if it's true that this position 7901 does not distinguish between natural and vaccine strain measles, if that's true, would it be fair to say that the conclusion of the abstract remains unproven?
WAKEFIELD: Yes, it would.
WAXMAN: I want to point out that we have been in contact with Dr. David W.G. Brown (ph),
the laboratory director, and Dr. L. Gin (ph), clinical scientist. They are the head of the World
Health Organization Collaborating Center for Measles in the United Kingdom.
And according to Dr. Brown (ph), he says the data presented suggesting the presence of
fragments of measles vaccine in these tissue samples is not scientifically valid. The authors
should have reviewed the measles database fully. And there are a number of questions that he
believes should have been evaluated.
Now I guess we'll have to hear from Dr. O'Leary whether he did the work that was required in
order to come up with the conclusion that would be beyond doubt the conclusion. Or whether it's
simply a conclusion that remains to be unproven.
But Dr. Brown (ph) says the approach described is scientifically flawed and will not reliably
discriminate between wild and vaccine strains. He didn't know why the authors did not review
available data or discuss with other measles groups with experience in this field.
Sequencing is the definitive technique to discriminate between wild and vaccine strains of
measles. And he doesn't know why that wasn't used.
So I want to just make the point here in the time that I have available to me that what we have
now presented to us is another conclusion that's made, but it's based on some unproved
information from an abstract. And I'm looking at the abstract.
Based on the abstract that Dr. O'Leary is going to be submitting and which Dr. Wakefield
submits to us as establishing the point he wants to make, according to the World Health
Organization Collaborating Center head, Dr. Brown (ph), it's another unproven theory. And we
need to have a lot more questions answered about that particular scientific evaluation.

** end of quote

no data - no vaccine measles virus in the guts examined then and, unless someone finds this independently, also not now.

PigletJohn · 26/04/2013 19:33

Beachcomber Fri 26-Apr-13 18:05:13
I was going to get round to your rather silly question when I had a moment

It seemed to me that if you hadn't answered after two days you weren't going to.

magdalen · 26/04/2013 20:59

Beachcomber,
Some papers for you (originally posted for Ladygran):

adc.bmj.com/content/93/10/832.short
"Results: No difference was found between cases and controls for measles antibody response. There was no dose?response relationship between autism symptoms and antibody concentrations. Measles virus nucleic acid was amplified by reverse transcriptase-PCR in peripheral blood mononuclear cells from one patient with autism and two typically developing children. There was no evidence of a differential response to measles virus or the measles component of the MMR in children with ASD, with or without regression, and controls who had either one or two doses of MMR. Only one child from the control group had clinical symptoms of possible enterocolitis."

www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/118/4/1664.short
"INTERPRETATION. There is no evidence of measles virus persistence in the peripheral blood mononuclear cells of children with autism spectrum disorder."

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.20585/abstract
"This study failed to substantiate reports of the persistence of measles virus in autistic children with development regression. ."

www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003140
"This study provides strong evidence against association of autism with persistent MV RNA in the GI tract or MMR exposure."

informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13550280701278462
"No significant differences in antibody titers to measles, mumps, and rubella viruses and diphtheria toxoid were found among the four groups. Additionally, there were no significant differences between the four groups for total immunoglobulin (Ig)G or IgM"

These are just the first five I came across, how many more do you want. Scientists have attempted to replicate Wakefield's findings, and they haven't been able to. His study itself was fraudulent, as is described in the BMJ:
'In an editorial, Dr Godlee, together with deputy BMJ editor Jane Smith, and leading paediatrician and associate BMJ editor Harvey Marcovitch, conclude that there is ?no doubt? that it was Wakefield who perpetrated this fraud. They say: ?A great deal of thought and effort must have gone into drafting the paper to achieve the results he wanted: the discrepancies all led in one direction; misreporting was gross.?

Yet he has repeatedly denied doing anything wrong at all, they add. ?Instead, although now disgraced and stripped of his clinical and academic credentials, he continues to push his views. Meanwhile the damage to public health continues.?

?Science is based on trust,? concludes Dr Godlee. ?Such a breach of trust is deeply shocking. And even though almost certainly rare on this scale, it raises important questions about how this could happen, what could have been done to uncover it earlier, what further inquiry is now needed, and what can be done to prevent something like this happening again.?'

Do you want it spelt out any clearer? There is no link. Studies have looked for the link and not found it, and Wakefield's original paper on which this whole thing is based was fraudulent. Not just wrong, but fraudulent.

Cheers.

Emperor · 26/04/2013 21:55

Thank you so much, Beachcomber, for your huge effort. Your contributions gave me a much better understanding.

Beachcomber · 26/04/2013 22:43

We can post links at each other all day and be no further forward. I find Dr Singh's work very compelling. And this recently published work from Walker

We are however discussing a huge medical controversy and one with massive vested interests and the potential to be politically explosive. One can find scientific evidence to support pharma and the government, just as one can find evidence to support the affected children, their families and their doctors.

CatherinaJTV, you seem to have read that extract and put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5. Nothing you have posted from that transcript suggests that the relevant children didn't have measles virus detected in their guts. With regards to vaccine strain, the transcript is inconclusive, possibly because Dr O'Leary is not there. I think key information is given here:

WAKEFIELD: The work was based upon a recent publication by Parks (ph) and colleagues, which may well supercede what is published on the website. And in that study, they make a clear distinction between vaccine and wild types of strains based upon that mutation.

Unless we know how the Parks study affected O'Leary's findings we cannot draw any conclusions from the transcript.

It's a shame you didn't post the whole transcript as it makes for very interesting reading. It is refreshing to hear some straight talking from Congressman Dan Burton.

Beachcomber · 26/04/2013 23:07

You're welcome Emperor, and thanks Smile

coorong · 26/04/2013 23:12

Beachcomber your contributions are fanning the flames of mysticism.

You are guilty of confirmation bias, cherry picking individual papers to suit your view. Singh produced ONE paper 12 years ago. Where are all the others?

And what about cochrane - or do you cherry pick your scientists to?

There have been BILLIONS of MMR doses administered in the last 40 years. At your estimate, there should be several million autistic spectrum children in the UK. And a massive spike coinciding with the introduction of MMR. Instead, there is a gradual trend upward in autism diagnosis (which actually correlates directly with media coverage of autism).

PigletJohn · 26/04/2013 23:41

a huge medical controversy

nope.

magdalen · 27/04/2013 07:23

Beachcomber,
"We can post links at each other all day and be no further forward.."
Well, not if they're links to scientific papers. Because you seem somewhat limited in your scope to Wakefield and Singh. What on earth Walker has got to do with vacation and ASD you might need to elaborate on. I've read Singh and commented in some depth on his paper on his so called "AAD", a term I don't see anyone else in the field using, on another thread.
Because it's Wakefield and Singh, over and over. For a bit of variety we get Judy Van de Water recently, which does make a change.
It isn't a huge medical controversy. It was a paper which (even before everything about Wakefiled came to light in no way justified any fear of the MMR) has now been retracted and its author Wakefield has zero credibility left after being revealed as a liar and fraud.
Cheers.

Beachcomber · 27/04/2013 09:39

Magdalen, I have followed your links, thank you for providing them. I have read those studies before - some of them available in full and they really need to be read in full in order to determine how relevant they are and what the methodology is.

To begin; as is said so much on this subject, autism is not one thing. That is why it is considered a spectrum; ASD. And that is very very important. The children on the spectrum are all individuals and they all have their own bodies, history, genes, predispositions and lives. Some children become autistic because they are exposed to rubella in utero, some because they have been exposed to a virus at a key time in their development. There is more than one cause of autism and there is more than one autism.

Dr Wakefield et al were concerned with children who presented with regressive autism and particular intestinal symptoms and in which both of these issues manifested after exposure to a triple viral vaccine. Their work (the Lancet paper and many others) is relevant to this particular population; a subgroup of autistic children and a small subgroup of the many children who were exposed to the triple viral vaccine.

In order to attempt to re-produce Dr Wakefield et al's work, a scientist needs to examine the same population. If a different population is studied, no light will be shed on what is or is not happening in the population identified and examined by Wakefield et al. This is basic science.

Of course, one can google and come up with several studies which show a lack of association between children with ASD who received MMR and measles antibodies/infection. And of course one can draw the conclusion that those studies did not detect measles in the children they examined. In the populations they examined. To then draw the conclusion that Wakefield et al were wrong/fraudulent/lying is a not only utterly unscientific but also rather bizarre. That isn't how science is done - particularly when dealing with rare and novel conditions about which we have very little information. Especially when examining developing children.

So, now let's come to the studies by which you set so much store and seem to think show no link between MMR and autism in the population studied by Wakefield et al. (They do no such thing BTW. They do not scientifically allow one to make anything like such a conclusion. Again science doesn't work like that. The only way to test Wakefield's theory is to test the same population).

I don't have much time just now so I will take just one example; that of the (infamous) Hornig study.

You link to the full version of this study but have you read it carefully?

Firstly we can note two things; one, that the study involved examining children using colonoscopy. (Something Wakefield et al were presented as being equivalent to Nazi medical experimenters for doing. And they were doing it for clinical purposes whereas Hornig et al are doing research with the objective of exonerating a vaccine Hmm )

Secondly, the Hornig study uses Dr O'Leary's lab and notes that;

Results were consistent across the three laboratory sites. and All laboratories correctly identified all positive controls using pre-established criteria for positivity (positive results in at least two of three wells with at least one of the primer pairs for F and one of the primer pairs for H). All laboratories correctly identified all negative controls.

Mmm so they use the O'Leary lab which was supposedly contaminated with crappy control methodology. Or at least is was when they found measles in autistic children. It seems that when Dr O'Leary doesn't find measles in autistic children that is good and consistent across the three laboratory sites. Hmm

Now, onto the results. Well they did detect measles virus in two subjects;

Analyses in all three laboratories found two ileal biopsy samples with MV F gene and H gene RNA: one from a boy in the AUT/GI group, the other from a boy in the control group.

(Remember that the control group was not made up of healthy children but children with GI disturbances alone .)

And then the real problem which comes with the selection of the study subjects themselves. 25 children with autism and GI disturbaces were studied but out of the 25, only 5 of them developed symptoms after MMR vaccination. In other words, only 5 belonged to the same subgroup as that studied by Wakefield et al. And of those 5, one child had persistent measles infection in his intestine.

Here is a copy of the press release from Thoughtful House in response to the study;

Autism Researchers Comment on New Study and Welcome the Affirmation of Previous Measles Findings

A study published yesterday in the Public Library of Science One (PLOS1), an on-line journal, failed to find evidence of measles virus in the intestinal tissue of 24 children with autistic regression and gastrointestinal symptoms. The findings contrast with those published in 2002 in which researchers from Ireland and the UK found measles in 75 of 91 biopsies from autistic children with GI inflammation, and in only 5 of 70 samples from non-autistic children1. The children with autism in the 2002 study developed gastrointestinal symptoms and autistic regression after the MMR vaccine.

In the study published yesterday, conducted by three independent laboratories, only 5 of the 25 children developed these symptoms after the MMR vaccine and therefore, only these five are comparable to the 2002 study. This new study confirmed that results from the laboratory of Professor John O?Leary (one of the collaborators on the new study, and senior author of the 2002 study) were correct, and identical to the results obtained by the laboratories of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and Dr. Ian Lipkin of Columbia University.

In that this new study affirms the reliability of Professor O?Leary?s laboratory and therefore of his previous findings, a major impact upon the current hearings in vaccine court is likely, wherein the government?s defense relies largely on the claim that Professor O?Leary?s finding of measles in the intestinal biopsy of Michelle Cedillo (a child with severe autism and epilepsy) was unreliable. The historical reliability of the measles assay used in Professor O?Leary?s laboratory is now confirmed.

The authors of the PLOS1 study make the erroneous claim that epidemiological studies have not supported an MMR-autism link, when in fact the CDC?s own study published in 2004 shows a significant association between autism and younger age at the time of MMR vaccination 2.

We are pleased to see that this new study provides further confirmation that children with autism suffer from gastrointestinal problems that deserve to be addressed as a priority. Dr. Andrew Wakefield, Executive Director of Thoughtful House Center for Children, whose work has focused on intestinal disease, and on the possible role of MMR vaccine in regressive autism in children with GI symptoms, welcomed these new findings. Dr. Wakefield was a co-author of the 2002 paper that, unlike yesterday?s study, examined children in the majority of whom there was a clear temporal link between MMR exposure and regression. Dr. Wakefield comments, ?The search for the ?footprints? of measles virus in the intestine is merited, based upon the previous findings and the intestinal disease that is commonly found in these children. This new study rules out only one possibility ? that the measles virus must remain for the long term in the intestine. We need to consider that the MMR vaccine can cause autism as a hit-and-run injury, but not necessarily leave the measles virus behind.?

While we welcome this study as a piece in the ever-growing body of evidence that illuminates the complexity of autism and the possible factors that cause it, it is clear that yesterday?s study does not establish that the MMR vaccine is not associated with autism. This work examines one small part of a very complex equation, and in fact by affirming Professor O?Leary?s laboratory and assay methods, it inadvertently endorses the validity of his 2002 findings of vaccine-strain measles virus in the gut tissue of a group of children with autism.

So hardly so cut and dried as "there is no link".

Beachcomber · 27/04/2013 09:48

Is that a joke PigletJohn?

This thing has been going on since the introduction of the Urabe MMRs in 1988 and is still unresolved now in 2013

Millions of research dollars have been spent, government bodies, courts, press and thousands of families are involved.

And it still won't go away. I call that a major medical controversy. Why are you bothering to discuss it?

magdalen · 27/04/2013 10:00

Beachcomber,
I am out, on my phone, so can I just respond to one pretty important aspect of your post: I don't think Wakefield's study was fraudulent because of other studies, I think it's fraudulent because it was found to be fraudulent. It's that simple.
The fact that no one else can replicate his results just is another reason to reach the conclusion that MMR and ASD (whichever subset if it you look at, regressive or GI trouble associated) are not linked in a causal manner. You are providing no evidence they are.
You are trying to make people think a link is there that isn't. I don't know what evidence you have that makes you believe so passionately in the link, because you sure as eggs are eggs are not presenting it here.
Cheers.

magdalen · 27/04/2013 10:07

PS One of the big problems with Wakefield's Lancet work was that he fraudulently described the onset if the children's regressive autism and GI issues to fit with his preformed theory. If you actually read the BMJ articles on the subject this makes it quite clear. Therefore it is going to be extremely difficult to come up with a subgroup of ASD sufferers with the onset and issues that Wakefield describes because even he couldn't.
He made them up.
Cheers.

CatherinaJTV · 27/04/2013 11:25

Beachcomber - I listened to the press conference associated with the release of the Hornig paper and they said they were actively looking for kids who had been "normal", then received the MMR, then developed gut issues and then developed autism. They couldn't find more that the 5 they included in the study and that is one of their findings: the order in which MMR, gut issues and autism happen is random.

O'Leary obviously cleaned up his laboratory and stuck to agreed SOPs. That is laudable.

CatherinaJTV · 27/04/2013 11:37

as for Dan Burton, he is a big nasty bully - I saw him in a government hearing, where he screamed down the government witness and bullied one expert into changing his numbers during his testimony. Instead of being a neutral mediator looking for information, he'll cuss about his grandson who received "nine shots in a day" - drama!

Waxman on the other hand has been my hero since his analysis of the abstinence only programmes of the government. He is evidence-base all the way - they way it should be. So O'Leary made claims about the measles strain they found being the vaccine strain and Waxman went out to find whether they can actually distinguish the strains based on that codon and they cannot. The claims were poorly researched (and we know since Bustin, that O'Leary probably "discovered" his positive control plasmids in the samples anyway). Everything is consistent.

Beachcomber · 27/04/2013 13:49

Coorong. I have made no estimate as to how many children may have been adversely affected by a reaction to MMR vaccines. The argument has never been that a majority of children are affected. (And Singh hasn't only produced one paper on the subject BTW.)

Magdalen I appreciate that you posted quickly from your phone but I'm unclear as to which Wakefield study you are referring to as 'fraudulent'. The doubt cast on the Ulmann paper came from the testimony in the US of Dr Bustin who gave his professional opinion that there were issues with contamination and methodology in Dr O'Leary's lab. Dr Bustin was an expert witness paid to provide his opinion in order to defend the manufacturer of the relevant vaccine - as we have seen from the Hornig study, Bustin's opinion has been categorically shown to have been wrong.

If you are referring to the 1998 Lancet study, the claim that the results were fraudulent were made by Brian Deer - a journalist with no medical training who has a long history of publishing misinformation about Dr Wakefield and his patients. Shame on the BMJ for getting mixed up with him.

Anyway, the findings of the Lancet case report have been replicated and confirmed by Dr Krigsman, Dr Gonzalez , Dr Furlano , Dr D'Eufemia , Dr Torrente , Dr Walker and others.

That some children with regressive autism also present with novel and complex intestinal issues is no longer the work of just Dr Wakefield and Professor Walker Smith.

Or do you think they are all in on the fraud, over several decades and countries? Hmm

Are they all B movie Villains like that bad bad Dr Wakefield? Has he duped them all? (And when does Coulmbo make an appearance?)

CatherinaJTV · 27/04/2013 14:25

The doubt cast on the Ulmann paper came from the testimony in the US of Dr Bustin who gave his professional opinion that there were issues with contamination and methodology in Dr O'Leary's lab.

And Bustin's opinion was based on the the fact that he is a world leading expert on PCR and he had studied the laboratory notebooks from O'Leary's group and therefore knew that they found contaminations and not something that had been in the samples. Day 8 of the Cedillo proceedings explains it quite well.

as we have seen from the Hornig study, Bustin's opinion has been categorically shown to have been wrong.

That is wishful thinking, but far from the truth. Bustin testified on the Uhlman results, the results in the Hornig paper were generated much later than that, using new quality controls. It is like saying that because no one caught food poisoning at the Fat Duck in the last couple of years, those 500 people who did in 2009 never actually were sick.

magdalen · 27/04/2013 14:26

Beachcomber,
I am talking about ASD, GI and MMR. The MMR bit is pretty bloody key when discussing Wakefield. Papers which don't actually mention or look at the MMR vaccine have nothing to do with the whole MMR ASD health scare.
The reason we are discussing Wakefield is because of that 1998 paper in the Lancet. The one which described those children with histories described in the paper which varied significantly from their actual records and from the descriptions given by their parents and also medical professionals. You don't like Brian Deer, that's fine. However ad hom attacks on his being a "journalist" aren't doing you any favours. I note Wakedield has consistently failed to effectively sue Deer, or Godlee, or Cannel 4, or the BMJ or indeed anyone for libel when they have time and again demonstrated his mendacity. To the extent that he has managed to annoy judges with his time wasting legal shenanigans.
So, it's papers showing a link between MMR and ASD, not ASD and GI issues or ASD and autoimmunity you need to be looking for.
Could you link to all those papers showing the sort of regression we are looking for associated with the MMR as described in the Lancet paper: "In most cases, the onset of the symptoms was after measles, mumps and rubella immunisation..." Which was where this whole MMR health scare started.
Cheers.

magdalen · 27/04/2013 14:28

Beachcomber,
I'll go through your links one by one:
Dr Krigsman, no mention of MMR.
Cheers.

magdalen · 27/04/2013 14:31

Dr Gonzalez, no mention of MMR...

magdalen · 27/04/2013 14:32

Dr Furlano, no mention of MMR...

magdalen · 27/04/2013 14:33

Dr D'Eufemia, no mention of MMR...

magdalen · 27/04/2013 14:34

Dr Torrente, no mention of MMR...

magdalen · 27/04/2013 14:39

Dr Walker, no mention of MMR either. Well there's a surprise!

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