have you given your child the chicken pox vaccine

[passivehoovering]

Hi all,

DD is 3.5 and is about to start her second year at nursery. She hasn't had chicken pox, and I really don't want her to. I don't want my darling child to get ill, feel bed, get scars, have awful complications, be seperated from her friends...So I was thinking about getting the Chicken pox vacine for her. I have mooted this with friends who also have children but they seem to want their kids to get chicken pox so I am wavering a bit.

If you have vacinated your children could you tell me how you went about it and where you found info? I don't know if I should try her GP in the first instance and ask them for info from Medline and if they know of anywhere that does the vacine. Also how was your child after? Anything else you can tell me would be much appreciated too.

Thanks

'........something thinks'? I mean 'someone'.

My typing has been appalling on this thread so apologies. My fingers are doing something completely different to what my head is telling them to do.

BBB, I know that the protection starts to wane after about a month and is completely gone by 10/11 months but someone mentioned earlier that it was babies under a month old that were high risk so having a mother that can pass on antibodies would at least benefit them.

Jo, I'm just pointing out that complications can arise from anything. You could get cellulitis from a scratch on your knee, a bee sting or, very rarely, a nasty CP spot.

LeBFG, I think it is a start. I think people need to take more responsibility for themselves without relying on others to protect them. Counting on someone else being immune to something to protect you is a bit unreliable. Just protect yourself, you're the only one you can rely on to do that. I do think it's important to make people aware of the potential complications (without terrifying them into thinking it's the plague!) particularly in relation to the immunocompromised/non-immune pregnant women but also so that they know when to seek medical advice. I"m not kidding myself that everyone is a model citizen but I think we need to start somewhere and it's not like it would take as much time or money as a national vaccination campaign!

I actually meant to comment on the flu vaccines earlier. Again, I think it makes sense for it to be available to those who have family members/others who are at risk so that they can help to reduce their chances of contracting it but I would hate to see a whole 'for the sake of the greater good' campaign that vilifies people who decide against a vaccine that will not actually benefit them personally.

So, bm, what about protecting the children? Protecting yourself as an adult...OK (even though I think this would never work in practice) in theory makes sense. But what about the LOs who have no choice in the matter? You talk about doing things to protect yourself personally, how can these children protect themselves personally?

Why do they need to be protected? CP is usually mild in children, they aren't the 'at risk' group.

Does anyone happen to know why some children suffer so badly with CP but others don't? I know twins and one had it mildly but the other had it far worse.

A friend took her son to work with CP. She knew he had it.......

People of all ages die from cp, including children. In the States, vaccinating children has led to a massive drop in cp death rates across all age groups over a short period of time. Interestingly, it has also lead to a massive drop in cp DEATHS in the under-ones (unvaccinated babies), most likely siblings of the vaccinated children.

Vaccines of all descriptions are developed with the primary goal of protecting the vaccinee. I think it odd you always want to harp on about this point. Any knock-on herd immunity effect is just a bonus (just realised I'm echoing Elaine's earlier post).

Yet we are told to vaccinate to protect herd immunity. A health visitor told me that I should vaccinate DS for that reason (not for CP).

People of all ages die from all sorts of things BFG, some of them incredibly rare. The chances of a healthy child dying from chickenpox are extremely small so it seems a bit excessive to vaccinate a huge number of children who will more than likely not suffer any complications from the disease.

The primary goal of the rubella vaccine is not to protect the vaccinee but non-immune pregnant women so those types of vaccines do exist. You could bundle the CP vaccine into that 'greater good' category but, as I said previously, it would make more sense for people to take some responsibility for themselves. If you wanted to protect yourself against a disease because it is risky for you to contract it would you vaccinate yourself or everyone around you?

Yet the chances of dying from the CP vaccine are....well, so rare as to be non existent.

Although to be honest, I wasn't worried about my children dying from chicken-pox, it's not measles or diptheria. The main reason I vaccinated them was to avoid a disease which is highly unpleasant for quite a significant minority of children - as well as the fact that it CAN be fatal or have serious complications for a few - which is not the case for vaccine (ie both risks are small, one is much much smaller than the other - I plumped for the lowest risk option).

Thus far it's been shown to be a very effective and long-lasting vaccine. I find it frustrating that parents in the UK are being denied access to this vaccine on the NHS. I'm lucky that I can afford to pay (and it's covered by insurance here in the US), others are not so fortunate and their children are therefore being exposed to a preventable disease.

EB, many of us don't actually mind that our children are being exposed to an illness that is uncomplicated for the vast majority so you don't need to feel frustrated on our behalf. :)

The vaccine has its disadvantages and not everyone would weigh it up and come to the same conclusion as you did. I, for one, think it's ridiculous to create a problem (potential increase in shingles in adults) that can only be solved by yet another vaccine. I guess someone has to keep the vaccine manufacturers in business though...

Of course you don't feel frustrated bumbley since you turn down those vaccines which are provided for free!

I'm speaking about the many parents who I personally know who DO want the CP vaccine. I suspect pressure will grow as more and more parents become aware that there is a safe and effective vaccine which has been used for many years in most other developed countries.

BTW, regardless of the CP vaccine, the shingles vaccine should be introduced. I think it might already be available on the NHS. Even without a CP vaccine, the incidence (and severity) of shingles is high enough to warrant shingles vaccination for the elderly.

Quick google brought this up www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/9431283/Shingles-jab-to-be-given-to-all-OAPs-in-their-70s.html

Hopefully the first step to also introducing the CP vax in the future.

I haven't read all the posts so sorry if has already been said but can anyone tell me where I can get the CP vaccine in North Surrey/Berks region? Thanks.

I actually think pressure/demand will be created by scare mongering and over exaggerating the risks tbh. That seems to have worked so far.

Again, great to offer a shingles vax but should everyone effectively be 'forced' into getting it because they'll be more at risk of it due to vaccinating children against a disease that isn't even that risky for them?

But you don't believe in herd immunity anyway Bumbley which means that introducing a cp vaccination should have no effect on shingles incidence. Right?

And most of the people I know who vaccinated against CP or would have liked to if it were available on the NHS - and indeed the ones posting on here - seems to have made their decision without any scaremongering or exaggeration of the risk of CP (the NHS website assures us it is only a mild disease). I certainly don't think I've ever exaggerated the risk of CP or have been exposed to scaremongering about it and I still vaccinated my children. Go figure!

I thought you lived in the US EB? That would xplain why you vaccinated against it.

I don't understand your comment about herd immunity.

Moved here quite recently. But I have lived all over the place including UK - and in all the countries chicken pox vax was standard apart from the UK.

So, BM, if herd immunity doesn't exist (ie vaccinating children makes no difference to the circulation of the virus in the community and an individual's chances of being exposed to the virus), how would vaccinating against chicken pox increase any individual's risk of shingles (below the magical 'threshold')? In the same way that you believe that vaccinating against measles has no impact upon any non vaccinated person's chances of being exposed to measles (below the magical 'threshold'). Why is this different?

Afaik the idea is that CP circulating in the community acts as a booster to people who have previously contracted it and helps to prevent shingles.

I'm still not sure what you are saying about herd immunity. I don't think I've ever said that 'herd immunity' doesn't exist becuase natural herd immunity is a pretty sound concept. It's the idea that vaccinating can create herd immunity to something like whooping cough when the vaccine wanes after a few years that I tend to question. I'm not sure what this has to do with the CP vaccine and shingles though.

Natural immunity to whooping cough also wanes.

Pretty sure you said that VACCINATED herd immunity to measles doesn't exist. Not sure why then you think it will for cp.

wtr my message earlier, I agree that cp isn't in the same camp as measles etc which is why I'm watching the States to see what'll happen esp with the shingles incidence etc. Cp is a mild disease for most. But complications can arise and bm asked why children should be protected. I think it would be silly to ignore the fact that the cp vaccine in the States has saved real lives, both young and old.

Herd immunity arguments do exist. I feel that health professionals would do better not to use them Tabitha. I feel disappointed you were subject to such an argument. Rubella, which people classically like to say is purely about herd immunity, I've argued about before: most people have children of their own, so both males and females benefit from not passing on rubella to their own flesh and blood. Many childless people have neices and nephews, so still have familial links to be protected. Obviously, confirmed single bachelors would be the exception, but how can a parent know in the early years he will later become childless? So I think on the whole there are good reasons to vaccinate with rubella - not to protect the vaccinee in this very specific case, but to protect offspring directly related to the vaccinees. As rubella infection sources are most often familial, herd immunity arguments are not main reason people vaccinate, it's to protect their own.

Bm knows well that natural wc immunity wanes, Elaine, but frequently ignores the fact when harping on about waning vaccine immunity.

It still lasts longer than the vaccine EB and no one tries to argue that you should expose yourself to whooping cough for the sake of the 'greater good'.

I'm still not sure why you are talking about herd immunity for CP. Preventing shingles is helped by people being exposed to CP and having their immunity boosted. Unless you are saying that the vaccine doesn't work so people will still be contracting CP? (well, we know some of them will but let's put that aside for a minute while I try to figure out what you think herd immunity has to do with this)