Lame excuses for not vaccinating

[JoTheHo]

Imagine you go to the quack, because of a slight dizzy feeling? 'I'm afraid medicine can't help you, but you've got it for the rest of your days. Be careful because this will mean you are more likely than average to have a car accident'. 'How much more likely?' you ask. I have no idea he replies. Would you stop driving your DC about?

Imagine your friend works for the govt stats office. She tells you that car manufacturers and govt have been conspiring to under-report car accidents. 'Cor' you say, 'how much are they fiddling the numbers'. 'That's just the problem no-one knows because it's all hush hush'. Would you stop driving your DC about?

I'm guessing most people would carry on driving. In which case, why do people use the exact same reasons for not vaccinating?

The anti-vaxer reasons that uncle Bert gets hay fever, hay fever is hereditary and something to do with immune system, vaccine damage is also something to do with the immune system, DC are related to uncle Bert, and are thus more likely than average to suffer vaccine damage. They thus don't vaccinate them.

The anti-vaxer believes that the evil quartet of doctors, scientists, govt and pharma conspire to under-report vaccine damage. All part of their thirst to play god, and make lots of money by making people ill, not forgetting generous measures of incompetence and stupidity. They reason that vaccine damage is under-reported so they don't vaccinate their children.

I have never seen any attempt to quantify whether either 'the more susceptible than average' or the conspiracy theory could plausibly be sufficient to justify not vaccinating. It's incredible lame. Many anti-vaxer start from a position of prejudice against vaccination. They then compile a long list of selective quotes, mis-quotes, anecdotes, quasi-scientific speculations, and conspiracy theories. They say this list is evidence, and that their prejudice has become a rational analysis. It isn?t. It?s an uncritical list of unquantified elements which are superficially consistent with their position.

Anti-vaxers, do you read 'What Doctors don't tell you'? It is a hugely subversive damaging to trust magazine. It FEEDS conspiracy theories. I thought OP'S post was fine, it generated debate...waht happens during the debate is entirely different.

I don't have a problem with an individual choice not to vaccinate - people have their own experiences, their own medical histories.

I do have a HUGE problem with the ridiculous amount of misinformation that is spread about vaccines and I can understand where Jo is coming from. Just in the last couple of weeks, I've seen people write that

infections are good for your immune system (wrong),

people who go to India get sick because they've been vaccinated (wrong),

after you have a cold you've burnt out the poison (wrong),

there's no herd immunity below 95% coverage (wrong),

they're upset that their children have been denied the opportunity to have measles (WTF?),

they wouldn't vaccinate with the MMR whatever evidence was presented to them about safety (because it cannot be),

they wouldn't vaccinate no matter how dangerous measles is,
potassium posphate is blown into your brain with a flu vaccine (your brain ALREADY has potassium phosphate in it),

measles isn't dangerous because their great aunt joan had it and she's still here (nuff said)

all epidemiological studies showing that vaccines are safe are flawed (until the elusive one comes along that will show they're not - that one will be perfect!)

there's a big worldwide conspiracy to hide the fact that the MMR is actually dangerous (they're all involved - the GMC, WHO, CDC, NHS, all national governments - they probably are the ones who shot kennedy as well)

that an education campaign about vitamin A and its benefits should replace vaccination (there is NO need to supplement with vitamin A in developed countries, it work in low income countries where vitamin A deficiency is widespread)

homeopathy can 'cure' a vaccine reaction (uh huh)

if there is a inconsistency between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence, the anecdotal must be correct

Elaine

As usual, you take things out of context with your xxxx(wrong)... yyyy (wrong)

One of those posts was mine, on another thread, and it was prefixed with to the effect, I find that for me....

Since you don't know me, or my health, or my family circumstances how is it that you can opine that my experience was wrong? How many others have you quoted out of context? Should we play you at your own game

measles is always fatal because my aunt died from measles it (wrong)

• or should we be more civilised and say that

measles may be fatal, but there is a vaccine (you need to weigh up the balance for yourself)

I said at the time that if you disagreed with me you were at perfect liberty to say so. I recall I got a cheap jibe about 'you don't like science' whereas you apparently do,but in my opinion, that could be qualified by the statement, when it suits you!

Eh?
(totally mystified as to the point the op is trying to make?)
I vac both my kids.
There were no contraindications not to...neither were undergoing chemo or other treatment that is contraindicated, neither we're unwell on the day of their vacs, neither had any reaction after....but that does not apply to everyone.
I have a big issue with homeopathy, but that's another thread!

Can I come to the island?
I'll bring my dyson?

Not if you bring your Dyson! How abhorrent!

I have fruit shoots hidden in it, and vitamins

So pleased for you OP that you haven't had a fit caused by an immunisation and your sis didn't have anaphalactic shock and almost died. When you are in my situation, then you can pull up your judgey pants.

And fwiw my children have finally had some of their vaccinations in hospital under proper medical supervision as the GPs finally admitted that they weren't as prepared as the hospital would be for what was a real risk. Only had the one dose because it was on the second dose that we reacted.

Just to jump in here as I'm not interested in this thread one bit, but...
As I understand it, if a child catches measles in the UK, we should give vit A supplements. Something to do with measles eating up our stores of Vit A. I believe it takes it from the liver first (is that right) then the eyes. Can't remember all the details.

Just wondered who produces these vitamin a supplements tabitha and if you have PROOF that they are 100% safe - because otherwise you won't give them, right? Even if your child has measles.

That's a bit like saying I won't eat anything as I don't know it's safe. Which, of course, is true, but food has been quite good at keeping me alive for some decades now. And, I enjoy it.
Anyway, point is, I thought we should give vit A? Perhaps not so necessary in the UK?

Food is most certainly not 100% safe. Choking, food poisoning, allergies - by your standard we should avoid all food apart from maybe very well cooked rice porridge to keep us alive. Or is is proof of 100% safe for vaccines irrational?

However, supplements are one of the least regulated and controlled part of the drugs market. It's not food.

Do you know that a study showed how variable the dose sizes are and there is a real risk of vitamin a poisoning if the dose is too high.

I actually don't know much about the therapeutic use of vitamin a in acute measles. I don't need to - my kids are immunized. Thankfully I won't be dabbling aorund guessing safe dosages of an unregulated vitamin supplement.

But the MMR doesn't work for every child, does it? So a child who has had two doses of MMR could still catch measles.
Ah, but now you'll want to tell me to vaccinate my child to keep up the old herd immunity.
Anyway, enough of this thread. I prefer to post on ones that start more sensibly.

Mmr is very effective against measles. And if, by chance, a fully immunized child does contract measles, they are far less likely to have complications. And, yes, there is further protection from herd immunity ( I'm in us, kids have to be immunized to go to school thankfully)

OP have you been drinking?

There are lame excuses for not vaxing, my personal favorite lame excuse is/was "But he cries with needles" - that is a lame excuse.

"My friend has two autistic children" is another lame excuse. The children were both diagnosed pre vaccination. Your family has no history of adverse reactions, no known allergies, there is no logical reason to this as a reason not to vaccinate.

A child with an egg alergy cannot have vaccines grown on eggs - that is a sound medical reason not to vax.

I think everyone on here knows I am provaccination, but, I do know there are good solid reasons not to vaccinate.

I also know that some people are damaged by vaccines.

OP this is a really badly worded and not thought out post. It is insulting to people who have good reasons to not vaccinate, or to only partially vaccinate eg when I worked in healthcare all staff were offered hep B vaccine and anual flu shots. A colleague had the hepB, but not flu - because she had an egg alergy.

Sometimes vaccination is for the good of the individual being vaccinated, sometimes it is for the benefit of others eg if someone is having chemo then family members may be offered vaccines to stop them passing things on to the individual undergoing chemo, as they can't have the vaccine, and the disease would be dangerous.

I am not going to rise to the goading comments, at best they are just immensely ignorant. I am not anti-vaccination. I am pro-vaccine education. Vaccination is a great idea, but the reality is that it is not risk free and the long term side effects are not known. As soon as a link is made between a vaccine and an auto immune disease or serious adverse effect, the research is stopped and redirected to disproving the link. This is because pharma funds research in academia and the govt give their friends in pharma money to develop new vaccines. It's called conflict of interest OP, not 'a conspiracy theory.' There's nothing fantastical about it, it's just the truth..you can read about it in reuters news! Vaccines are a continuing process of trial and error, even after the clinical trials are over . Eg..The DTP has been replaced by the DTAP because the former was causing too many cases of seizures and encephalitis. The oral polio is now only being used on poor children in the third world; it has been taken out of use in the west because it can cause polio. (I'd say that is pretty evil. It's not ok for our kids but it's ok to force it on little Indian kids --they don't care if a couple of hundred get paralysis.) So what is the guarantee today's vaccines are safe? None. Why are combination vaccines being promoted when it's been shown that individual ones pose fewer risks? Money. When pregnant, I read a book by an MD called Stephanie Cave. The book 'What your DR may not tell you about Vaccination.' was balanced and let you decide from the stats. I learnt alot about vaccine links to autism, auto-immune disorders, SIDS and more. I recommend every parent read it, and especially OP. Maybe then decide if she holds the same opinion about parents who don't vaccinate. Really, educate yourself for your children.

www.amazon.co.uk/What-Your-Dr-Childrens-Vaccinations-Doctor/dp/0446555711/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344699167&sr=8-1-spell

If you Google stephanie cave the first entry is whale, so extremely unlikely to be well researched or unbiased.

Why do you assume that bruffin? Perhaps the reason that whale link to her is because they agree with her findings. I don't know anything about her but it seems a bit strange to discredit someone's book because a certain website mentions them.

For dh and me, it was the unclear evidence re EFFECTIVENESS of vaccines both on individual and 'herd' that played a part in our decisions, not just risk.
And it is a case of vac DECISIONS rather than decision - each disease and vac has it's own stats so we have gone for some and not others.
(sorry bout shouty capitals - I'm on my phone so it is the only way to emphasise...)

Even you should have worked out by now that nothing on whale is credible.

I just googled whale.to and GMC and they're mentioned on there too so does that mean they aren't credible either?

Veryberry

I was in a pediatric cancer ward in an Indian hospital. Children were dying from cancer which would have been treatable in the uk because they didn't have the expensive chemotherapy drugs. Are you outraged by that?

Difficult decisions are made in low income countries all the time. Ideally, India would give both opv ( to prevent tranmsissiom) and ipv (for increased personal protection). Ipv is way more expensive but opv is still preferable to doing nothing at all. I'd like to see India move to ipv but it's certainly not evil to vaccinate children against polio since the risk of vaccine induced polio paralysis is very small compared to the risk of contracting wild polio paralysis.

And anyway, we may be able to eradicate polio so future generations wont even have to spend on a polio vaccine. This is a good thing.

Your outrage is both hypocritical and misplaced.

Don't be silly
I didn't Google whale I just Googled stephanie cove and all the top entries link straight to the whale site. It's a page devoted to her.