Complaining about nhs complaints procedure!

[Mharhi]

is it possible to do that?

they have taken my complaint which is mainly about systematic errors eg missed follow-up, missed notes, communications problems. i basically gave an anecdote of what happened showing how this effected me, hoping they would see they needed to change basic things.

They have taken statements from the consultant and surgeon involved in my care who gave me good care under the circumstances, and made them say what they did and validate it.

Then pointed out stuff they feel I should have done.

I didn't think it was about blaming an individual, it wasn't what I'd hoped for. I'd hoped for some points to improve to come out of it and did ask that in my letter- what impact it may have on future patients, record keeping communication etc, none of it is answered.

what to do? Is it possible to complain about a complaints system? Do they always do this statements thing I wonder. It is also advised that when you complain about them you do not repeat yourself or get emotive. So, I didn't, just stated the facts. I did say how I felt eg in a lot of pain. However in the reply it is repeated twice something they feel I did wrong.

I've got in touch with pals so far sent them a copy of the complaint and response, thinking of going to the Ombudsman.

Any advice welcome!

I think I would respond to whoever answered your complaint and explain your concerns .
The few times I have made " official " complaints I have tried to be really specific with questions (" can you tell me what changes you will implement to ensure that this does not happen again /what systems do you have in place to prevent this " ) .

I think you should make the points you have mentioned above - you were not seeking to apportion blame but hoping for reassurance as to how their protocols could be improved to prevent reoccurance .
And say that you are dismayed that they have responded by shifting the focus back on to you and laying blame at your door .

Can't think of what else to offer as advice - maybe someone else will .
Or repost on Legal - bet someone will help there !

You can contact PALS.

A complaint will almost always go on the record of a member of staff, usually the consultant. Organisations are obliged to reply within certain timescales. These days the nhs have few resources to make changes and are scared a complainant may sue so they are unlikely to admit there is a system fault let alone do anything about it. Action is usually taken against negligent health staff.

A complaint won't go on a member of staffs record unless they've done something wrong. If it's a complaint about systems it certainly wouldn't go on a staffs members record. I've had two complaints made against me and neither are on my record as they were investigated and I hadn't done anything wrong.

I would not have thought that there was much point going back to PALS if you have already made a formal complaint. Their function seems mostly to be to smooth things over.

I have recently made a complaint and have no hope of any real resolution, especially as I have just had an update saying that my complaint is being reviewed by one of the doctors I complained about!

I'd think seriously about going to the Ombudsman.

D

Yup - Public services ombudsman is the way to go if you are not happy with how your complaint has been dealt with

Rockin D I am having the same things as you at the GP! Have not had cause to complain in 30 plus years then both GP and hospital. Anyway got message from practice manager saying GP who dealt with you will write to you when back from leave. Hmm.

It's hard isn't it because it makes you have to go a step further to get a proper response.

I hope it doesn't go on the consultants records. I wonder now whether to write back like mentioned and explain what I wanted and to let the staff know I was not trying to blame them but highlight certain overall issues.

Would the Ombudsman make things worse for the staff though?

All complaints involving a doctor go on their record. Regardless of whether they have 'done something wrong'. Its because doctors are meant to reflect and learn and change practise and be open and transparent. Consultants are often responsible for a service so those sort of complaints will also go on record. Complaints go on record within the trust clinical governance system and in the consultants portfolio.
Complaints are very stressful. They shouldn't be but they are. And very time consuming. They take at least 4-5 staff to process at different parts of the organisation. For health staff dealing with a complaint usually means extra work out of hours.
The problem is that people are very ready to complain and not so ready to compliment so documentation always looks quite negative.

Once a written complaint has been generated a response comes through formal channels using a process which follows national and trust policy. This can be counter productive. In my experience it is almost always better to ring up and ask to chat to the staff concerned as often problems can be solved earlier and quicker.

I'm not a great fan of the PALS route as I think it just generates paperwork, and doesn't solve the problem, and the ' I want it to be better for other people' rationale is suspect. Often problems are due to an already recognised deficit which there are lack of resources to address. The NHS runs on goodwill and has done so since its inception. It is not a retail organisation. A complaints culture would be counterproductive. It is much better to ring up and solve a small individual problem or series of individual problems than to try and change the organisation.

Where PALS can be helpful is if a phone call hasn't worked, to help write a letter asking for the service you need. This is quite different to making a complaint.

I have found PALS helpful for basic stuff like actually getting appointments. In fact with this my local hospital I had to go through PALS to but it is not their function to deal with matters that have escalated to the level of a formal complaint, and sometimes, with the best will in the world, you do have to make a complaint.

This is not something I did lightly - I waited two years from the first mis-diagnosis before I finally accepted that this had to be done, not for me, I'm not going back there, but for others who come after me and may not be so articulate, and who need to know that they will receive continuity of care from knowledgeable medical staff, backed by efficient admin. I hope that maybe, just maybe, my complaint, and others that have gone in recently, may make a difference.

I would have loved to go in and have a meeting to discuss all the issues, but this was not possible. This department does not engage with patients other than through clinic appointments and any attempt I had made to raise issues in clinic appointments had been totally blanked.

In the end I felt I had no choice but to bring the issues to the attention of the Trust.

D

Yes with mine it was a case of one thing leading to the next. letters from GP crossing with hospital ones, medical records not transcribed properly, surgeon not having notes on ward round, problems with transfer from night staff. Resulted in emergency situation not being spotted and me being sent home for a week with no monitoring from GP (GP send letter second class to monitor got it a week later)

I have my records. As a novice to the NHS it is very scary and I can see how the most vulnerable could be at risk.

It's very stressful to go through though as it should be viewed positively rater than negatively as a way to improve. I don't think it's right to just take statements like that. Like in a court.

funnyperson the thing is what do you do when it is how the whole system works that has let you down and also the staff? If you chatted with them they'd probably agree with you..it wouldn't help they should be able to get on with their medical work rather than have to validate admin stuff.

Hmm I suppose it depends what has happened and how much it is an error on the staff and how much a bigger issue.

My friends works in clinical outcomes and patient safety and says it is usually a combination of things together which can lead to a serious incident / accident.

So these things do need addressed, for the staff as well as the patients.

we have spent 2 years on a complaint and essentially when the NHS investigates a complaint they are investigating themselves!

ombusdman is the way to go, give them a ring they are very helpful

thanks submarine yes I spoke to a lady at the Ombudsman today and she was helpful. I have also been advised from ICAS it might be a good idea to have a local resolution meeting first, has anyone any experience of that? ICAS said the Ombudsman would probably expect that first.

have sent you a PM re icas

Thanks gastro please feel free to get in touch let mo know how it goes. Best of luck

Hi- I know this thread was ages ago but thanks for the messages. I just wondered, how the Ombudsman was going, Submarine, also gastroenterologist. I'm just getting the paperwork together for it, hoping they'll look at it.

I found that copying my letters into the chief exec of the trust - meant I got dealt with promptly & very well & it was acted upon. Mine was a series of poor communication, lack of treatment & poor organisational systems for a particular consultant.

I have now had a response to my complaint and re the three most serious issues that I raised, they have done the following:

Where I said that I thought it was unprofessional for a consultant to complain that another consultant was wasting his time by referring me, they have said that they have checked with him, he denies it and he says that perhaps I imagined it because I didn't like the advice I was given!

Where I said I thought it might be unethical of a consultant to advise me to buy the meds I need off the internet and get someone I trust to inject me, they have ignored this completely.

Where I have asked whether it is appropriate to use a doctor for clinic who admits he knows nothing about my condition, cannot answer any of my questions and cannot interpret my test results, they have ignored this as well.

I am composing a response, but do not expect to achieve anything.

D

Hi Rockin D-

In my response they also ignored anything important and went overboard to explain small points- hmm

I'm going to try the Ombudsman and trying to put a file together with medical notes about all the important stuff with the complaint letters.

I can sort of piece things together using my notes but that's not the same as a proper honest explanation. I found it pretty dismissive and abrupt too, things like "certainly not" a bit patronising and mentions of how expert and experienced they are 'in 25 years experience'...

Hi everyone, i've just noticed this thread on active conversations and had a read-

All i can say is that I wish i'd read it a few months ago!

I went down the PALS route after it being suggested on another thread, but found them to be as feckless and dishonest as the rest of the hospital management. I wish i'd read this first and not bothered.

Mharhi and RockinD i'm so sorry you have had such rubbish responses to your complaints. And RockinD, accusing you of imagining it is beyond disgraceful. I really feel for you about that.

I'm in a similar position to you both and thinking about the ombudsman or local resolution meeting, but don't know anything about either and would appreciate advice.

I am dealing with Croydon University Hospital which doesn't help matters as i suspect it may well be the worst run instution in the known universe ... quote from my local paper yesterday "SIX months after being given 28 days to improve, Croydon University Hospital is still not only meeting minimum standards in just half of the areas it should be, but has also been found guilty of putting patients' lives "at risk""

If anyone on this thread could give me advice i'd be really grateful. My thread with info about what i'm complaining about is here if anyone wants more info

(At the end of the thread i wrote a letter to the hospital telling them that i didn't want anything more to do with them because of their behaviour but since then i've been forced to recontact them because they sent a letter to my GP telling them that i'd missed an apointment without notifying them that i wasn't going to attend (completely wrong- i've got a copy of the letter they sent me in reply to my letter saying i wasn't going ) but I can't help feeling somewhere there must be a grown up who can actually deal with a complaint and i should be talking to them rather than the hospital.

Hi WhyAlwaysBoris-

I just read your story and that is terrible, how you have been treated both during and afterwards. I think it sounds like they have lost some information and are now worried and that might be why are putting off your appointment and explaining to you. I have read that if they lose your notes / info that is not good if they face a legal case- not sure if that is right though but might explain a bit. I have heard good things about SANDS- Stillbirth and Neonatal Death charity- might be useful for some more specific support. So sorry to hear your loss and how you have been treated.

I have just got my file together for the Ombudsman, (after a no win no fee solicitors were very keen to get involved but decided not to)

I wondered WHyalwaysBoris, it might be worth you writing a formal complaint which they should respond to in writing within 6 weeks. Depending on how you got on you could go the Ombudsman too? It might help you to get it off your chest and so you can move on too but I don't know how you feel- it doesn't seem resolved does it. Hope you are feeling OK today and congratulations with the new pregnancy. It is unbelievable how patients get treated, (I could have died as they didn't spot something serious) and it's awful what happened to you-

I wonder the more serious it is the less likely it is to be openly discussed and apologised for whereas if it was just dealt with appropriately and sensitively rather than trying to pretend it never happened...

WhyalwaysBoris So sorry I just read the end of your post again and they didn't reply to your formal complaint. Could you ring the Ombudsman? I just read of something where they stepped in on something seriously wrong like this and helped someone. They seem very helpful anyway. It must be awful that terrible treatment compounding everything. HTH