Did the first round of shots. Bad experience. Do I do the second round?

[stopgap]

DS is 4.5 months old. We're in America, so he got the full round of AAP-recommended shots at twelve weeks. He'd already shown sensitivity to Zithromax I took for a chest infection (screamed for three days, non-stop) and we recently took him off Zantac for silent reflux, as he stopped smiling/stared off into space at the higher dose.

Now, to the first round of vaccines. His colic/reflux was all but done at eleven weeks, then he had the shots, and developed:

Green diarrhea.
High fever.
Inconsolable screaming. Not crying, but screaming.
Screaming gave way to perennial fussiness.
Discomfort and pain during feedings/before bowel movements that has only just subsided.

Now I realise that the gastro stuff could have been developmental "colicky" stuff, unrelated to the vaccines, but it seems awfully strange that it went into overdrive right after the shots. Given his track record of sensitivity to meds and vaccines (and soy and milk in my diet; today, for instance, he had a bloody stool after I experimented yesterday with raw cheese for the first time in our breastfeeding "career"), I am downright confused about whether or not to go forward with the next round of shots. Our current pediatric practice will likely kick us out if we refuse/delay shots, but I have found another pediatrician who is willing to be more flexible.

Any advice? Any useful, impartial sites? Words of caution/reassurance? I've read Dr. Sears' vaccine schedule, but it still seems quite full-on. There is autism, rheumatoid arthritis, allergies, asthma and apnea in my family, so I'm likely more cautious than most.

There is absolutely no way on earth I would consider any more vaccinations for him. You must look at what is best for your son as an individual.
My advice would be to take him to a naturopathic physician, who will be able to help with the state of his digestive tract, and may be able to advise on future vaccination.
Best of luck.

I think it's down to finding a doctor you trust and following their advice, rather than deciding on a course of action and finding a doctor to facilitate this. You don't say how long the symptoms lasted, that may be useful to someone more knowledgable than I. Good luck.

I think if vaccines were considered like any other drug then your son would not be given them or doctors would proceed witch caution and look into other options. As it is, for some reasons horrible vaccine reactions are considered normal and you will probably be told to just carry on regardless because it's for the greater good. I personally would look further into your son's reaction and decide on whatever course of action suits him best. The US has quite a few vaccines that we don't have here in the UK so you may want to look into the different vaccines anyway and decide which ones you think are important for him to have (if any) and then decide how best to proceed. Dr Richard Halvorsen has written a good book about vaccines (he isn't anti-vaccine) so that might be worth a read for y even though he is UK based.Good luck!

I would not believe Bob Sears a single word. His alternative vaccination schedule almost doubles the number of office visits and he charges $75 to 200 per visit (honi soit qui mal y pense). His schedule is not very well researched (if at all), plus, the mention of his name is known to irritate the heck out of other US physicians.

Now, I am very much for vaccines, but the CDC immunization schedule reads more like an accupuncture scheme. Evaluate your risk factors: do you breastfeed (1)? Is your child NOT in daycare (2)? Does your baby NOT have older siblings (3)? Are you 100% sure that your baby's carers are all hepB negative (4)?

If the answer to all of this is yes, you could go with a "European" low risk schedule, like Austria does for example. They vaccinate DTaP/IPV/hib/hepB at 3, 5 and 12 months. The pertussis protection is worse after two shots than after the three in the 2, 4, 6 months schedule, but if you are willing to risk that, this is something to discuss with your new ped. Also, you could NOT do the PCV13 (Prevnar) together with the next DTaPetc but a month later. So then, at your next visit, you could do something like the Pentacel (DTaP/hib/IPV) at 5 months, the PCV13 at 6 months and then give the next Pentacel at 12 months and continue from there.

Hope this gives you some ideas - let us know how you get on

Catherina

(1) (exclusive) breastfeeding reduces the risk of severe rotavirus infection, of hib and invasive pneumococcal disease (IPD)
(2) daycare attendance is a risk factor for hib, IPD and pertussis
(3) older siblings are a risk factor for IPD
(4) hepB can also be transmitted by casual household contact

interestingly, (2) and (3) are protective from allergies :)

Catharina, I breastfeed, I don't do daycare (though we go to some mums' and baby groups), no older siblings, and no Hep B+ people with whom my son has contact. What's more, me, my husband and Grandma all had DTap and flu shots a couple of months ago, as that is standard practice at the pediatric practice.

The new ped suggested:

4 months: DTaP #2
4.5 months HIB #2
5 months Prevnar # 2
6 months DTaP #3
6.5 months HIB #3
7 months Prevnar #3

Then MMR at age two, and polio and Hep B when he's three. Again, my concern is that my son's digestive system is awful right now. For two days running, he's had blood in his stools/mucous, likely as a result of the cheese I ate, plus shocking gas pains, and things haven't been remotely normal since the first set of shots (which included the dreaded rotavirus) and we are yet to get back on track. He's also started with the most incredible amounts of spit-up, though I realise that could be related to teething on the horizon. His weight gain is fine, though I'm concerned all this spitting up (and a worsening thereof, if we do the next round of shots) will cause it to stall.

The new ped said he would have no problem spacing out the above a little more, either. On the one hand I'm low-risk, according to your criteria, but we live in the middle of NYC, not the boonies. Hell of a decision to have to make...

It is tough when there are so many decisions and so many things changing at once. And many of the changes in your baby may not be related to the vaccines - babies change all the time just because they are growing.

The one important point I wanted to make is that there is NO link between vaccines and autism. Multiple detailed scientific studies have looked and found nothing. So please don't worry about that as a risk.

Stopgap, that sounds awful :(. If it was my decision I don't think I would do anything until I had the bowel problems under control. At least then if you have another vaccine and he has the same reaction then you know what is causing it. I would definitely be speaking to your paediatrician about the blood etc. Perhaps you could get allergy testing Done? Or maybe keep a food diary for yourself and see if there are any other things besides dairy that make it worse.

Re the autism thing. No one is saying MMR causes autism but there are suggestions that it can possibly be triggered by certain things such as vaccines in susceptible children. Unfortunately there has been no research done yet to figure out which children can be considered 'susceptible' yet. It's not something you have to think about yet anyway. I would try to deal with the bowel problems first and then look at the adjusted vaccine schedule again. Fwiw I would leave longer than 2 weeks between the shots too just to allow time to see if there is any reaction so you can be sure which shot (if any) triggered it. That's just my own personal opinion though. I'm sure you'll make the right decision. I hope he feels better soon.

Just to add, he's such an upbeat, activealert!baby, who is meeting all his milestones on time.

Bumblebunny, I hear you about vaccines triggering a reaction in certain children. My brother started life with terrible esophagitis (and is high-functioning ASD) and a first cousin had a terrible MSPI and is now undergoing tests for a bettery of unusual and quite serious neurological symptoms. Another cousin had a serious reaction to the HPV vaccine, and I myself am beset with multiple food and environmental allergies. I think there's enough out there linking gut issues to autoimmunityand enough of an iffy family history to give me pause for thought.

I'm not discounting vaccines altogether, but I do think we need to get my son's gut problems under control before proceeding.

Stopgap - I totally agree on the "hard decision to make". Your new doctor sort of goes the Sears way. Would he use Pentacel (which would give you DTaP/hib/IPV in one visit/shot)? You could do that at 5 months and then have at least one month before you need to decide on the Prevnar or on any further DTaPs.

What does your ped suggest regarding the bowel issues? Is he sure the spit up is "just" spit up, or could there be a reflux issue?

So much going on at the same time, I am sending thoughts and strength!

The new doctor is pretty much open to anything, but given the severity of my son's initial reaction, he suggested breaking things down to avoid repeating any vaccines that cause a real problem.

We have an appointment with our current paed on Monday, though given the stringency of the practice re: vaccines, likely it will be our last meeting. Thus far he has been dismissive of the bowel issues, stating "developmental and colic". He did willingly say that the Zithromax was a problem, but I have a hunch he'll deny any of the problems my son has stem from the first round of shots, even though we were done with colic by that point, and the silent reflux was at most a twice-weekly problem. The MSPI issue got lumped in with "colic" but now that we're getting blood and mucous with most bowel movements, maybe he'll start to take the problem more seriously. If not, off the ship we jump.

with the bowel issues, I would think rota anyway, so my aim with suggesting the Pentacel was to have pertussis and hib out of the way, the two most important bugs in year 1.

Hopefully, the bowels are going to settle down (although with teething starting and solids at some points, a lot of things are going to go on)...

Leonie, did your husband/girls start out with bowel issues?

CatherinaJTV has given some good advice.

Normally I would be telling people to vaccinate but in your case I'd take a step back.

First I'd ask for blood tests to see what immunity your child has at the moment. Second and Third shots are for long term immunity as the first doesn't always work or can 'wear off' - not technically acurate but good enough for here.

If he currently has immunity then there is no reason to vaccinate again right now - this will need to be reviewed in the future but not now. What needs to be looked at now is his bowel issues.

If he is not immune then you need to look at his personal enviroment, what is he at risk from? What does he need immunity to?

Hep B is transmitted in bodily fluids from someone with Hep B - as he is not haveing sex / blood transfusions and his carers do not have HepB does he really need this at this stage?

He is also getting some immunity to whatever diseases you have had throught he breast feeding.

IMHO I'd ask for a blood test and take it from there.

Well, I got the response I expected from our current paediatrician. He said it's hard to know whether the vaccines caused the problem, then in the next breath said it was technically possible for rotavirus to cause a problem as it's a live vaccine. He acknowledged the blood/mucous in the stool as a milk allergy, and told me to avoid dairy until my son is one. He spoke about IGA deficiency. Is this something you can test for? In any case, he said it's next week or never for at least HIB and Pneumeccocal vaccines, so I politely told him I'd talk it over with my husband, but I shall not be returning. He also rubbished any link between early gut issues and autoimmune problems in my family.

Sashh, you talk a lot of sense. I really do feel vaccines right now would cause tremendous harm to my son's digestive system. His gas/stools are so smelly, and he shrieked when the doctor compressed his abdomen (did that with the specialist in December, too, but not pre-vaccine). While we're no longer getting daily bouts of screaming, my son still has lengthy periods during the day when he's clearly in discomfort. His little body tenses right up, and he rubs one foot against his ankle over and over, as if trying to seek relief :(

He said it's hard to know whether the vaccines caused the problem, then in the next breath said it was technically possible for rotavirus to cause a problem as it's a live vaccine.

And that is the most honest answer.

He acknowledged the blood/mucous in the stool as a milk allergy, and told me to avoid dairy until my son is one.

That is good - hopefully, this will help.

He spoke about IGA deficiency. Is this something you can test for?

Yes, you can and if he suspects that, I am surprised he did not initiate testing.

In any case, he said it's next week or never for at least HIB and Pneumeccocal vaccines,

That is rubbish. You can vaccinate almost anything at any time (apart from the rotavirus vaccine, for which you have to finish the series before a certain age). You certainly can do hib and PCV whenever you like. The risk is only that your son is unprotected until then.

so I politely told him I'd talk it over with my husband, but I shall not be returning.

Is that your "alternative" doctor? Do you have a new alternative? I think it is important to have a health professional at hand to work with you!

He also rubbished any link between early gut issues and autoimmune problems in my family.

That sounds unprofessional - still, do you have an alternative?
In any case, I hope your own dietary modification and time help with your son's gut issue. It is horrible when the little ones are not feeling good. Hugs!

CatherinaJTV, by next week or never, he meant with regard to us being permitted to stay at that paediatric practice.

We have two other doctors we're considering, one who will really do whatever we want, and the other a developmental paediatrician, whom we see tomorrow. Depending on what she says, our decision will be made and we'll move along.

To say my son's short life has been stressful is an understatement. He's such a beautiful, engaged baby, and it's frustrating that he still has long periods of fussiness some days, as per two- and three-month-old newborns

CatherinaJTV, by next week or never, he meant with regard to us being permitted to stay at that paediatric practice.

Well, I guess your desire to stay with him is not very high anyway ;)

We have two other doctors we're considering, one who will really do whatever we want,

Which is attractive, but not really helpful unless you know exactly what you want

the other a developmental paediatrician, whom we see tomorrow.

Hopefully someone with compassion and expertise - good luck!!!!

LeonieDelt, right now I want to do exactly that: nothing. At least regarding vaccines. Hopefully the developmental paed will be, as Catherina says, someone with compassion. I actually spoke to her the week my son stopped smiling/babbling (on the higher dose of Zantac, though I didn't know at the time what the hell was causing his behavioural shift) and she certainly seemed more sympathetic over the phone. We'll see.

For the OP only. Sorry not interested in debate.

My DS1 was ill from the time he got his 1st - 3rd shots. Green explosive poos. Very fussy, poor sleeper. He was breastfed. Had permenant colds till nearly 11 months when a ear infecton caused him to have a febrile convulsion. I had to keep putting the MMR off as he was always ill. One week he was not ill so we did it (well his dad took him as my gut instinct would not let me take him). He had a bad reaction to the MMR, got a dose of measles, was ill for 10 weeks, temp spikes, really bad green loose stools, so acid he could not wear a nappy, we had to cover the floor in newspaper and let him walk round bare.

Many trips to the doctors, until docs said 'we can't help you anymore, go to a homeopath'. So we went she gave us a MMR antidote, he had high temp for 24 hours, she would not let us bring it down. Following day, happy smiley kid. Left with prone to chesty coughs, ear infections. At 7 he got a internal bleeding disease that could have ended in kidney failure, and included arthritus. That took two years to clear.

He has not recieved any further vaccines to date. I am very wary as his condition is listed as a side effect in vaccines.

I would not proceed unless you are very happy with what you are being told, and you have recieved ample explanation. But I think you will get the 'its a coincidince' line.

LOL at technically possible for rotavirus to cause a problem. Its well documented for causing a twisted gut, introspection. And a vaccine was pulled from the market it caused it so many times.

www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/rotavirus/vac-rotashield-historical.htm