MMR - autism link - informed answers?

[dawneg]

My DD2 is having her mmr presch jab and 5in1 booster tomo, she had her 13 mth lot and had no adverse effects. My DD1 has had the 13 mth and 3.5 year jabs and all seems fine.

Every time their jabs come up, I get myself in a stew, esp after reading all the news about a possible link to Autism and other bad side-effects. My kids are my world (like all other parents) and are a constant worry.

I have imm'ed both my girls, not with 100% conviction but because I hope (pray) that they will be OK and, obv, do not want them to contract any of the illnesses that the imms provide protection from.

What I want to know is, for all the kids that I have heard/read about on here and in the news etc:- what is the explanation for 'my child was developing normally, had MMR, then the next day completely changed'? I have yet to see anything that has given a real reason for this, if MMR is NOT the cause.

My DD2 is a very chatty, happy, loving, smiling, outgoing, hilarious and bright little girl. She is well-known by evrybody as a complete character. If, on Weds, she is different (permanently) there is no way in the world it wouldn't be the MMR. Other people would notice and would definitely comment/agree.

Don't wanna start a debate on whether or not MMR is safe, just can't help but feel terribly for these parents who don't seem to be taken seriously? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm yet to see/hear a proper explanation for these dramatic and instant changes straight after MMR. Can anybody on here do that?

Ok, to just answer your question and not get into the debate as it's incredibly emotive....some people say that the reason is because the age at which the onset of autistic traits and the age at which the mmr is given is around the same time, so it's coincidental. Though that doesn't explain the overnight change scenario

Agree with mince . Also they dont do mmr but single jabs in Japan- autism rates there still comparable to other territories so make of that what you will.

I am not informed and have no axe to grind either way. But I also have heard that people suggest is coincidence. I'm not sure whether there's a realisation immediately that there has been regression or change, or that after a few weeks a parent might look be concerned and look back trying to pinpoint a specific cause/time that this can be arributed to.

An analogy is that my ds2 had a terrible awfulmtumble down the stairs. Have never seen such bumps on a head. Was awful. Fine at a & e but still, nearly 9 months later has dents/bumps that seem part of his skull now. A couple of weeks later I noticed that he now leads with his left foot when scootering when before the accident he led on his right foot. I do wonder whether this happened as a result of his head injuries, the fall down the stairs from top to bottom and round a corner. But I'll never know (and it doesn't matter in my case because is trivial in comparison to what parents with kids with autism who suspect vaccination injury to through). But if a doctor/academic had suggested that the two were linked, then I'd probably believe this was the case, regardless of whether he/she was subsequently discredited.

It's a naff analogy and I in no way mean to suggest that the two issues are identical in terms of importance or impact. Just that I can understand fully why some parents have linked and continue to link the vaccination to subsequent autism.

For what it's worth all mine have been vaccinated with no adverse effects. And that's the case for the vast majority of parents/children.

If you take a look here, it's an interview with Emma Noble (model who married John Major's son, in case you've forgotten!).

She describes the same coming on suddenly, immediately different, regressive autism as you're talking about... but her son didn't have the MMR.

(Slightly that I've given a Daily Mail link as an 'informed answer', but that's who she did the interview with so what can I do...)

It's a very grey area. The problem you have is that there are so many ranges in autism and it tends to be regressive autism that people link to mmr I think, as the change is not only sudden but also that the child changes significantly, losing skills that they had developed rather than a progressive range of traits which come more pronounced the older they get. Also, the thinking that autism is something children are born with rather than acquire. Although the theory that some children are more susceptible to vaccines seems to hold more of the middle ground. Hence the link to gut problems etc, that some children cannot process the vaccines in the same way that others can, and can be damaged by the vaccine whilst others cope with it.

My son got his second MMR at 2.5 following the accelerated German schedule. He got it on the Thursday and by Saturday, he was a different little boy. He completely snapped out of the terrible twos phase he had been in, in which he was only pointing and whining when he wanted something and became all smiles and totally relaxed, talking in 5 word sentences and expressed interest in potty training. Literally within 48 hours of that MMR shot. And there is no way that the MMR did this (I wish - I would have gotten him a 3rd when he went through a difficult phase around age 4).

Let us know how it goes - I am sure all will be well.

The link between autism and mmr was never substantiated by research . It should never have been published.

Children with autism develop normally and then vegin to shows signs of autism abput 18 months - 3 years old. About the time they have the jab.

There is no proven link. There was one badly written discredited and fraudulant report.

The numbers of autistic people diagnosed have gone up world wide - but that is probably due to better diagnosis as the rise has been the same regardless of MMR being given. Eg if a 50 year old is disagnosed with aspergers syndrome then that counts as a 'new' diagnosis but has nothing to do with MMR because they would not have had the vaccine, however people who believe in the link will say the number has gone up since MMR was developed.

With all vaccinations there is a small risk of side effects, but the chances of developing a side effect that is life changing from a vaccine is much lower than getting a life changing side effect from M M or R.

Some children cannot have certain vaccines so rely on herd immunity, ie most people being resistant to some nasty diseases. The same is true for many adults with reduced immunity.

It's like the argument that canabis smoking leads to heroin addiction. Most heroin addicts have smoked canabis. So does that mean canabis leads to heroin addiction?

Well ALL heroin addicts at some time in life were fed breast milk or formula. Also they wore nappies, lost baby teeth and were born. Just because all of these things happened to them does not mean it is the reason they are addicts.

Dawneg - there are loads of threads in this section that cover MMR and respond to certain things that people are posting here eg that Wakefield published a paper that said that MMR caused autism etc (it didn't say that) or that mumps and rubella are really dangerous, life threatening diseases to catch (they aren't) I think you'd get quite a lot of information from reading those threads and they would give you good overview of all the issues, experiences and different opinions on here. Good luck! It's a bit of a minefield!

Btw the MMR is given at 12/13 months not 18 months - 3 years Sashh.

The Japanese give/gave (not sure if they still do) separate jabs but they were given close together which some argue defeats the purpose.

"or that mumps and rubella are really dangerous, life threatening diseases to catch (they aren't)"

German measles isn't danegerous to the child who has it, but it is dangerous for pregnant women. I know someone who had a termination because she contracted German measles in her first trimester.

How sad. Why wasn't she immune herself? Its a bit risky to rely on other people for protection when you dont know who is immune/not immune around you every day.

I have an ASD son. With hindsight he had very clear autistic traits prior to the MMR jab.

After many assessments I'm of the understanding that ASD can often be seen through bloodlines. Some people in my family definitely have strong traits.

"Why wasn't she immune herself?"

It was some time ago and she was a lot older then me. I suspect that vaccinations against rubella weren't around in her day.

bumbleymummy

Actually it is often given later - uni students who missed the second jab are advised to have it. And the post a few above mine CatherinaJTV dc was vacinated at 2.5, is she mistaken about the age of her child?

There is no link.

The research was so flawed it's now in gcse science as an example of what not to do. (and also an example of the abuse of media in pushing dangerous anecdotal hysteria)

Sashh, the average age that the first jab is given is 12/13 months. You can check the NHS website if you don't believe me.

The rubella vaccine was introduced in 1970.

Buck minster - how not to do what? A case series? It wasn't intended to be research into whether MMR causes autism you know.

2.5 years was his second shot. His first was at 16/17 months.

Bumbley - the Japanese hardly vaccinate against mumps, only girls get rubella, which is why very few Japanese kids get all three vaccines.

In Wakefield's own words (4.2 in his law suit):

in the the Lancet paper Dr Wakefield and his colleagues described inflammatory disease in the intestinal lining of these children, possibly related to the MMR vaccine given all at once.

i felt the same as you op, no disrespect to mumsnet but there are so many discussions on this issue and it is so emotive i felt either completely panicy at the thought of dd having her jabs or a complete failure for even questioning the vaccine programe. good luck with your decision, i have vaccinated both dcs and they are both fine. I have also had very limited experience of working with people with autism and i agree with the above poster who has noticed a family trait.

How does 'possibly related to' = "this is research to determine whether MMR causes autism and our results say that it definitely does" ?