MMR at three? Or should I wait until booster age?

[SoBroken]

To cut a long story short, DS has had all his vaccinations except the MMR. After seeing mothers talk very passionately about the effects it had on their children, DH and I decided we didn't want to do it, and would get single jabs instead.

However, he lost his job and things have been very tight financially. We have never had a spare £300 to actually get it done.

Looking at DS starting nursery after xmas and I'm a bit worried about him catching measles or something while there.

The private clinic where they do the separate jabs told us there is no need to get separate boosters at five, as by then, the danger of autism has passed.

I just want to know at what age this passes? Should i go and get the MMR done now, or should I wait until he's five? Our financial situation is still too tight to get the separate jabs at the moment, at least while DH builds his business up a bit.

I don't like a "sorry you feel offended" - I prefer "sorry I offended".

I bet you don't, however, that is what you are going to get if you allege calls for eugenics instead of explaining what offended you and why (I know that you did now, thank you, but I could have chosen to be extremely offended by your eugenics judgement, and I didn't - big girl pants are always a good idea when you go onto a discussion board and want to avoid that people think you distract from the topic).

Epi Wonk = epiwonk.com/?page_id=2

I did not bring that page up as a argument for you, but as background info for others and as that, it covers the bases (from my perspective, obviously).

Second, the drop in cot death rates there after the minimum vaccination age was raised. I used to know about this years ago - I can't believe I didn't keep it in mind.

You didn't keep it in mind, because it didn't happen. The number of cot deaths after infant vaccines dropped in Japan, because cot death happens in year one and if you don't vaccinate until year three, you will not get a temporal association between the two. However, Japan did get cot deaths while the immunization age was from two years PLUS they got loads of dead babies from pertussis, so they lowered the vaccination age again to the usual time for developed countries and have amongst the lowest cot death rates now. Really, you should not spread anti-vaccine fairy tales (in this case Viera Scheibner's), at least not the ones that have been so thoroughly debunked.

Blueberties, what is the vaccine coverage for M, M and R in Japan? How many children get all three vaccines? Present your own research, because ours says that very few children get M, M and R and yet the ASD rate is rising there. If you have data from Japan, then please present it here.

AW pulled that 6 months suggestion out of thin air (to be friendly), it is not supported by anything in the biomedical literature. We had already established that there is no link between viral diseases in close succession and autism or any gut disease (despite AW's and your claims).

I am very much looking forward to posting over the weekend. I am also looking forward to my bed after a hard day's work. I will read later.

"You didn't keep it in mind, because it didn't happen."

I'll link the infant mortality tables and studies complete with comments from scientists even you will be able to accept. That takes some digging out though.

"AW pulled that 6 months suggestion out of thin air (to be friendly), it is not supported by anything in the biomedical literature. We had already established that there is no link between viral diseases in close succession and autism or any gut disease (despite AW's and your claims)."

You haven't established anything of the sort. If there's one thing that's clear from this board, it's that repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true.

While you're waiting for my infant mortality tables, could you address the points about Cochrane - that's it's based on only two studies (after 2001), and that it found safety testing for MMR to be inadequate.

I'll link the infant mortality tables and studies complete with comments from scientists even you will be able to accept. That takes some digging out though.

Please do, and please make sure the "scientist" is not Vera Scheibner...

And of course we have firmly established that it is only Wakefield and his friends who claim that measles and other viral disease in close succession lead to autism/ASD/whatever. You could not come up with anything to back up your assertion.

Cochrane also found that the MMR has nearly eradicated M, M and R and they did not find any evidence that MMR did cause autism, do you agree with that bit of their report?

As for the "redhead vs person with hair reflecting light at a wavelength of around 700nm" theme - you lashed out as if I had said "oi GINGER, you should be burned". A nice attempt at diversion from the topic... that said, I am truely sorry if "autistics" hit a nerve with you because people have used the word in a demeaning fashion to you/your child. Not nice. But it has nothing to do with the discussion here.

What a happy coincidence

It will be McFarlane and Noble, will those do you?

Perhaps rather better than your strange links.

"Cochrane did not find any evidence that MMR did cause autism" - er I've just addressed this and asked you about it. They only had two studies to look at - Madsen (flawed) and Smeeth, which you can link if you like and we'll discuss it. Everything else was before 2001 so worthless.

If you're trying to justify your comment with your redhead comparison - and I think you are - forget it. You can't.

I don't have any autistic relatives or a vaccine damaged child. I am interested: but disinterested, if you even understand that. So please don't try to imply that I'm too sensitive or emotional or personally involved.

Just out of interest - I don't think anyone but us is reading this. And I think you know what the tables will show. I couldn't find them yesterday and I haven't looked today and this is the reason.

You know they'll show a drop after 1975 when the vaccination age was lifted. But you are someone with a specific interest in this - a journalist, a research scientist, a doctor - with a specific interest in rebutting claims of vaccine damage. Maybe it's even your job - feel free to deny it. But for example I just glancingly mentioned the Japanese vaccine and you were right there with your comment - that only happens when someone is quite immersed in this stuff, and that's why I think you're someone with a specific professional interest.

You don't have to deny or agree or anything, I'm not asking you, I'm not accusing you. It's a free country.

But I'm saying that I think because of that, you already know what the figures will show. You know now that they'll show a drop after the vaccination age was lifted.

Basically, I think you know I'm right, about this and about MMR, though not on the same scale. But for public health reasons, you are very vehement and you have rehearsed the arguments against.

I suppose what I'm saying is - you might as well post your comment now. You've got it worked out and lined up. This is a charade. And it's a charade that I'm not sure it's worth a lot of research for.

Tables from the Funayama, M., Tokudome, S., and Matsuo, Y., Autopsy Cases of Sudden Unexpected Infant Deaths Examined at the Tokyo Medical Examiner's Office, 1964-1993. American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology, 1996. 17(1): p. 32-37

1964-68 : 250 SUD cases, almost none were SIDS
1969-73 : 153 SUD cases, almost none were SIDS
1974-78 : 153 SUD cases, approx. 7 were SIDS *
1979-83: 104 SUD cases, approx. 25 were SIDS
1984-88: 118 SUD cases, approx. 65 were SIDS
1989-93: 144 SUD cases, approx. 90 were SIDS

• Pertussis immunization age was raised to two years in 1975

As assked previously please provide a link other than vera scheibner to your claims.

If you're trying to justify your comment with your redhead comparison - and I think you are - forget it. You can't.

No, not trying to justify anything, just trying to find out where you are coming from. I know now.

your lame pharma-shill cop out

It is a cop out, you don't find your tables (although the anti-vaccine descriptions are all over the internet for you to copy and paste), glad I wasn't holding my breath...

I said I know my vaccine and anti-vaccine sources. For a while you tried to ridicule me, now I must know them because I am paid for it? You come across as rather helpless right now...

Thanks Bruffin - wasn't that difficult now, was it?

Haven't read escept for your last two posts - no it wasn't a cop out - I literally couldn't find them. Are you accusing me of lying again? You two never tire of that do you?

What does pharma-shill mean? When did I try to ridicule you? That last post, I meant every word of it.

Now for the rest.

Caterina - I've known where you're coming from for quite some time. Early on in the last thread we were on together when you dropped the Mrs Nicey facade.

Different tables though I can understand your confusion. I'm not looking for SUDS - - my first post mentioned that of course - but about infant mortality so if you can find those tables Bruffin that would be great. Thanks. I don't expect you to be generous and post the comparison between the US (most intense vaccine schedule) and Japan.

Bruffin maybe you could help with finding the Noble 1987 study of acellular pertussis vaccine finding that :"it is difficult to exclude pertussis vaccines as a causal factor even when other etiologies are suggested, particularly when the adverse events occur in close temporal association with vaccination".

And also Bruffin (I am quite busy today) the 1982 MacFarlane study finding:
"The postneonatal mortality fell markedly in 1976, the year in which a sharp decline in perinatal mortality rate began. Between 1976 and 1979, however, neither the late nor the postneonatal mortality rates fell any further."

Thanks that'd be great.

Keep your hair on Caterina. And find a better source for that de Suissa assessment if you can, and also can you respond on Cochrane. Obviously you might be busy, like me, so just a request.

Blueberties, you can google "McFarlane and Noble SIDS" and it comes up with plenty of anti-vax sites... your latest posts are cop outs, just like you copped out over the viral diseases in close succession issue. You come up with no substance...

BTW - if vaccines cause cot death, why do the SIDS AND infant mortality rates keep going down while the number of first year vaccines keeps going up?

Hello Leonie just me I'm afraid for now. So thanks and all the best!

Noble and McFarlane are not anti-vaccine Caterina. I suppose I'll have to find them myself.

Caterina are you losing your temper? You seem a bit high-strung this morning.

de Suissa is not published - there is nothing for me to tackle (and I don't do Stott and Wakefield).

And lovely "bait and switch" - you did not mean "cot death (SIDS)", you meant "infant mortality" - saved by an anti-vaccine web site just in time it seems.

Have to go to work, will look at the numbers tomorrow.

Noble and McFarlane are not anti-vaccine

I never said they were, but you will find their papers abused on vaxxaloon sites like whale.to

are you losing your temper

Blueberties, are you trying to divert from your substance-less posts again, since the autistic eugenics diversion did not work?

Just a quick question to clarify that my answer fits, Blueberties:

we are talking about JAPAN'S infant death rate, are we not? That was the country in which infant vaccination age was raised.

Eh? why isn't Leonie allowed to post on this thread?