Debate on Vaccines

[Emsyboo]

I have seen a few threads where mums have an opinion pro or con vaccine and asking for more information I would like to know your reasons for being one or the other.
My MIL is very anti vaccine and told me 4 out of 30 children die from vaccinations - I don't believe this to be true think their may be a decimal point missing although I have seen some posts from people who seem to have backed up information about vaccines.

I am pro vaccine but like to see both sides before I make a decision so if anyone has any information pro or con and more importantly has info to back up I would be really interested.

Thanks

None of this has any bearing at all - PIMS - on whether MMR triggers autistic disorder - just pointing this out for anyone who might be distracted.

so you have never taken antibiotics?? you have never been in a hospital??
you have never accepted ANY medical treatment?

To be honest, this is REALLY wandering off the subject and Im not particularly interested in debating this as you really are in a minority with your wishes to live absent from ANY medical interventions

PIMS is now a medic??

Are you engaged in trollery PIMS?

Why did you make a play act earlier?

From the HPA:

"Despite common belief there is no firm evidence that orchitis causes sterility."

The only thing that is happening from all this is an ageing population putting a strain on services and dimishing quality of life for everyone will be the inevitable result.

Im sure a famous German said the same thing...

"Wandering off the subject"

There are (at least) two subjects.

1. the wider risk-benefit debate

1. the impact of MMR and vaccines on autistic disorders

(1) has not bearing on (2)

(2) has bearing on (1)

Actually PIMS - you're putting words in my mouth. I never said I wished to live free from any medical interventions. I'm afraid you have assumed something and you are wrong.

I believe they have their place. I also believe we rely too much on them and don't take enough self-responsibility.

I've been in loads of hospitals. 9 times out of 10 I have come away from there having caught something horrendous in the waiting room or ward. If you want to get sick, visit a hospital!

I've taken antibiotics in several situations and they have saved my life more than once. I've also been prescribed them for minor illnesses and refused them.

The 'evidence'
Chapter 1:

Wakefield's paper reported that all 12 children were previously normal

The cause for inferring causality hinges on this, and is untrue as subsequent review of the children's medical records have shown.

The paper reports that Nine children had a clear diagnosis of regressive autism. This is categorically untrue Only one child had a clear diagnosis and three of these children clearly did not.

The paper reports that these children were referred through 'normal' channels. Very few of these children were referred and in fact were recruited from as far a field as America

Child 1: concerns raised to GP at 9 months re possible deafness (one of the first potential signs of autism) not vaccinated till 12 months

Child 2: variations in the testimony given by the mother and symptoms reported in Wakefields paper.
Child two was the only child to have a clear diagnosis of regressive autism despite the claims of the paper.

Child 4, (who received the vaccine at age 4 years), Child four was kept under review for the first year of life because of wide bridging of the nose, He was discharged from follow-up as developmentally normal at age 1 year.?
Medical record showed that his pre-MMR years recorded multiple concerns over his head and appearance recurrent diarrhea developmental delay general delay and restricted vocabulary And although before his referral to Wakefield his mother had inquired about vaccine damage compensation his files include a
His medical files also report of a very small deletion within the fragile X gene
and a note of the mother?s view that her concerns about his development had begun when he was 18 months old.

Child 8 had significant developmental delay before MMR at 18 months and had only vocalized 2-3 word and had a coarctation of the aorta surgically corrected at 13 months which her paediatrician placed side by side with the delay and dysmorphism

Child 11: recruited from California. Parents agreed that the reported time of symptom appearance documented in Wakefeilds report was inaccurate. The paper reported that they began at 15 months. (1 week after the vaccine) however medical record show that they began at 13 months (before the vaccine was given.

2 of the children were brothers who had a history of siezures and bowel problems before the MMR vaccine. One also had a diagnosis of aspergers prior to MMR administration

a further child had been investigated for the possibility of apergers by the royal free before the MMR administration

Shall I go on to look a the HUGE conflicts of interest in this paper

This is case and point why causality can not be assumed and has to be proven. This paper was flawed. There is no credible evidence that can be taken from it

Anyway - sorry to hijack but there are two sides to every story and shades of grey in all of this. Absolutism on either side is misplaced.

As you were.

PIMSoclock Wed 20-Jul-11 11:13:57
illum, Im sorry. I dont accept that. If nature knew best and we left this life to a survival of the fittest I would be dead, my oldest son would be dead, my father in law would be dead, three of my four siblings would be dead.
We have all at some point required life saving treatment and I do not accept that is is moral or ethical to let 'nature take its course'
If I did this at work, I would be accused of neglegence
illuminasam Wed 20-Jul-11 11:14:49
PIMS - you may want that for yourself, I'm afraid I don't.

So why take antibiotics to save your life?? You are contradicting yourself. You either want to let nature take its course or you accept that science and medicine have a place in prolonging a good quality of life

rosi7.

WEould you take your child inot an area where there was cholera, confident that her strong immune system would protect her?

I haven't read the rest of this thread, but I recently read Janine Roberts books, The Vaccine Papers and Fear of the Invisible and was shocked at her findings. Made me think again about vaccines, I can tell you.

and before you defer to silverfrog, GB try addressing the evidence yourself!

Gooseberry,

I am indeed addressing the wider debate, as it is the most important one. Also, there are many on this threads claiming that vaccines do not work at all or that the risks outweigh the benefits so they would not recommend children being vaccinated. The thread is actually defined by the OP, not you, and is about the pros and cons of vaccination, so I am sticking to the debate terms set by the OP.

Mumps is not a trivial illnessin children. My brother had it aged ten and was in bed for the best part of a week, unable to eat and struggling to swallow. It is very unpleasant even for those without the more dangerous complications of encephalitis or deafness.

By the way, I still have not had any volunteers to accompany me to a "hot" zone among those who believe that vaccines don't work or we should rely on our immune systems.

On the LESS IMPORTANT debate of whether there is an MMR/autism link in a tiny tiny amount of cases, I still feel that there are no respectable peer reviewed studies which show a causal link.

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out another viewpoint to provide balance.

I don't have an either/or mindset that is set and rigid on one particular view or way of doing things. Unlike some. What works for some does not work for all and I believe that people should be allowed to have their own opinions and viewpoints, despite what the God Science dictates.

Of course it's unpleasant. So is a bad cold. On the plus side, I bet he enjoyed watching telly in bed and being off school.

From the HPA:

"Despite common belief there is no firm evidence that orchitis causes sterility."

but inflammation or the ovaries caused by mumps definitely can trigger an early menopause and lead to sterility

bruffin, do you know how the official result came about? It has been co-financed by pharmaceutic industry. You want to say they are more trustworthy?

seeker, blackmailing and spreading fear does not work with me anymore

any time you are ready gb, heres that post again in case you missed it

The 'evidence'
Chapter 1:

Wakefield's paper reported that all 12 children were previously normal

The cause for inferring causality hinges on this, and is untrue as subsequent review of the children's medical records have shown.

The paper reports that Nine children had a clear diagnosis of regressive autism. This is categorically untrue Only one child had a clear diagnosis and three of these children clearly did not.

The paper reports that these children were referred through 'normal' channels. Very few of these children were referred and in fact were recruited from as far a field as America

Child 1: concerns raised to GP at 9 months re possible deafness (one of the first potential signs of autism) not vaccinated till 12 months

Child 2: variations in the testimony given by the mother and symptoms reported in Wakefields paper.
Child two was the only child to have a clear diagnosis of regressive autism despite the claims of the paper.

Child 4, (who received the vaccine at age 4 years), Child four was kept under review for the first year of life because of wide bridging of the nose, He was discharged from follow-up as developmentally normal at age 1 year.?
Medical record showed that his pre-MMR years recorded multiple concerns over his head and appearance recurrent diarrhea developmental delay general delay and restricted vocabulary And although before his referral to Wakefield his mother had inquired about vaccine damage compensation his files include a
His medical files also report of a very small deletion within the fragile X gene
and a note of the mother?s view that her concerns about his development had begun when he was 18 months old.

Child 8 had significant developmental delay before MMR at 18 months and had only vocalized 2-3 word and had a coarctation of the aorta surgically corrected at 13 months which her paediatrician placed side by side with the delay and dysmorphism

Child 11: recruited from California. Parents agreed that the reported time of symptom appearance documented in Wakefeilds report was inaccurate. The paper reported that they began at 15 months. (1 week after the vaccine) however medical record show that they began at 13 months (before the vaccine was given.

2 of the children were brothers who had a history of siezures and bowel problems before the MMR vaccine. One also had a diagnosis of aspergers prior to MMR administration

a further child had been investigated for the possibility of apergers by the royal free before the MMR administration

Shall I go on to look a the HUGE conflicts of interest in this paper

This is case and point why causality can not be assumed and has to be proven. This paper was flawed. There is no credible evidence that can be taken from it

Illumina,

Your last post shows your blase attitude to serious infectious disease. He did not "enjoy watching television". He lay whimpering in a darkened room (because of the headache), he was unable to eat and swallowing caused him great pain. And, as I said, his was regarded as a normal case without serious complications.

I do think that attitude typifies the anti vaccine brigade. They kind of think of these childhood illnesses as variations on a bad cold.

Rosi7 there is worrying information being shared by both sides
however there is only one side with any scientific evidence to show what direct harm can be caused by preventable diseases

Risk benefit for each vaccine. and I will go back to Tabs suggestion of a transparent fact sheet for all was a fantastic idea

There is again this confusion. We have to distinguish between the medical profession and the way pharmaceutical industry works.

<
but inflammation or the ovaries caused by mumps definitely can trigger an early menopause and lead to sterility>

Is that a theory or a fact. Again from the HPA:

Oophritis in 5% of post-pubertal females. Sterility seldom occurs.

Let's get things in perspective shall we.

Despite the lack of an association between autism and MMR, MMR immunization rates in the UK declined acutely (from 92 percent in 1995 to 79 percent in 2003) In June 2008, measles was again endemic in the UK, 14 years after it had been eliminated

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Update: measles--United States, January-July 2008. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2008; 57:893.
Measles once again endemic in the United Kingdom. Euro Surveill 2008; 13.pii:18919.