Debate on Vaccines

[Emsyboo]

I have seen a few threads where mums have an opinion pro or con vaccine and asking for more information I would like to know your reasons for being one or the other.
My MIL is very anti vaccine and told me 4 out of 30 children die from vaccinations - I don't believe this to be true think their may be a decimal point missing although I have seen some posts from people who seem to have backed up information about vaccines.

I am pro vaccine but like to see both sides before I make a decision so if anyone has any information pro or con and more importantly has info to back up I would be really interested.

Thanks

Gooseberry,

There is no question that atmospheric Co2 has been going up in the last 50 years. There is no question that autism has been going up. I imagine you can correlate autism rates and Co2 rates pretty successfully. Are you proposing atmospheric Co2 may cause autism.

What research would you like done? A double blind trial of vaccinated and non vaccinated children. Would that really be responsible.

What really gets me about people like you is that you fail to acknowledge the fact that not vaccinating children puts vulnerable groups such as newborn babies, pregnant women and the immunosuppressed (such as cancer sufferers) at greater risk of DYING from what you might call a "mild" childhood disease.

GB, making the same points over and over again doesnt make them right. As I said before. an indication does not equate to exact proof.

actually Pims tell me - as you're so keen on this "nonsense" accusation

which bits - exactly - are "nonsense"?

GB, I understand them entirely. Have you actually performed any research yourself?

I have, a number of times in healthcare. Believe me, I know how this works.
You are wrong. Could I suggest a course in medical research might help you understand?

Which bits are nonsense?

which bits of your posts are nonsense??
at the moment, most of them!

Larry - do stop giving examples of correlation that don't take account of the temporal detail in MMR-autism evidence.

Why, anyone would think you were trying to mislead people.

A bit of detail pims. I've analysed your "argument" in great detail. Surely with your confidence that I'm talking "nonsense" you'll be able to address some of that.

Gooseberry,

How about you address my 2 points:

1/ What research would you like done?

2/ Do you admit that more pregnant women, newborn babies and cancer sufferers will die if more parents reject vaccinations on behalf of their children.

just for the record, none of my posts use the phrase 'nonsense' yours do, on several occasions. Are you getting me confused with someone else??

"You can talk. Everybody is not able to discuss this in the way you describe - and you can have a look back at your pro-vaccine bragade posters to see where the unpleasantness began. Although naturally that probably wouldn't have bothered you."

You have been persistently rude and aggressive - often in a particularly juvenile way - to people who have not been rude and aggressive to you. If I were to use your reasoning, I would say this is because you can't face the possibility that the peoplel questioning your point of view might possibly be right.

Larry - how about you address my points?

1. I'll defer to silverfrog - I've seen research which is very complicated and I don't understand on gut disorders and viral disruption. Are you suggesting there is no possible research that can be carried out other than epidemiological? As I've answered your point - you should answer mine.

1. Overdramatic, scare-mongering and emotional - not to say irrelevant to the fact at issue: can MMR or other vaccinations trigger autistic disorder.

Seeker: no I haven't - I started off very nicely and got called a vaxaloon.

To be honest it's not because they might be right - it's because they are so frustratingly incapable of understanding. One wants to shake them.

" difficult to get a single diagnosis often because it is not a single problem in isolation it is more that one."

pims - you misunderstand me. the dx is not difficult because it is difficult to determine what the issu(s) is/are. it is difficult because the whole health service is creaking at the seams, and parents are ignored, more often than not, when they first try to raise concerns.

my dd does have just a single problem. and a simple, uncomplicated dx. but this has not stopped other professionals putting their spin on her dx, and trying to translate her dx to fit in with whatever bandwagon thye happen to be leaping upon this week. and, quite simply, since ASD is a spectrum disorder, the boundaries are blurred. what is moderate to one, is severe to another. what one paed refers to as regressive, another sees as gdd followed by asd dx. there is no "might" in "there is a problem with the official figures" - it is absolute. in the Wakefield instance, the very person who argued that he shoudl be taken to task for not differentiation between ASD and CDD is on record as saying the two are (within a subset of ages) indistinguishable - but not when it suited him, obviously.

larrygrylls: what you fail to understand is that vaccinating children such as my dd2, when she was tiny, as she shoudl have been, would have (in all probability given her medical issues) have led to her being severely autistic. and the whole medical profession would have turned around and said "well, obviously only to be expected, really - it runs on families, you see" (dd1 is ASD).

but i held off. and, following investigations (which took al ot of pushing on my part), it transpires it owudl not be a good idea to vaccinate her. we found this out when she was 20 months old. she woudl have had the lot by that age, if I wans't as aware of potential issues.

and even throughout her tests, her paed was telling me to vaccinate her. she got dubious test result after dubious test result, which did not fit the pattern the paed was expecting. but he wanted to dismiss them, and urged me to vaccinate. and then, finally it turns out that it wouldn't be a good idea.

where would the health prfession have been had I vaccinate dher, and she had regressed? nowhere. that's where. I would have been dismissed as a loon, like every other parent who tries to say the same thing.

Well quite a lot of your posts have contained the word nonsense. So which bits are nonsense?

GB, I have never called you any names, but you have certainly questioned my character and been point blank nasty at times

I haven't called you any names or questioned your character.

Which bits are nonsense?

"To be honest it's not because they might be right - it's because they are so frustratingly incapable of understanding. One wants to shake them."

I think you might find the feeling's mutual.

A tip. If you think somebody doesn't understand you, saying the same thing, louder and with added insults doesn't help. It doesn't work with foreigners either, if you were thinking of going abroad this summer.

Don't be silly - there's nothing difficult to understand about what I've written - it's exceptionally clear. I have a very clear view of the self-contradiction and failures of argument on the pro-vaccine side and have set them out with clarity.

In fact a lot of it doesn't involve a rejection of what they argue - just pointing out exactly what their argument entails, and that if they are going to make such a point, they need to know that it entails this, that and the other which often they don't initially understand. And - sometimes - find difficult to accept.

My view is - if you hold that point of view - this is what it means, this is what it entails, this is what you are defending, this is where it contradicts something else you said.

Nobody's going to like that, and people are going to say - but I didn't say that!

Oh - but you did.

Right can you all go away for a bit because I must GET ON.

Larry Why did you say that GB is in a minority?

to quote GB, ' Well quite a lot of your posts have contained the word nonsense. So which bits are nonsense?"
None of my posts use that word. Trust me, I have double checked. feel free to prove me wrong, but Im sure you'll claim that you dont have the time!
I have never used the word nonsense.

Please get your facts straight and stop claiming a say thing that I havent

the fact that you have to defer to another poster to answer a question, just shows the limit of your knowledge. You are happy to hide behind someone else who clearly has done a lot more reading than you!

Tabitha,

Because, across the country she is in a small minority. Luckily, MMR uptake is around 90%.

Also, there are no peer reviewed respectable scientific studies that have established a link between MMR and autism. This is an accepted fact by 95%+ of genuine scientists/doctors etc.

There is a small vocal anti vaccine lobby but it is small.

And you cannot say that putting newborns, pregnant women and cancer sufferers at risk of serious viral infections is a small think or irrelevant to the discussion. To me it is absolutely pivotal.

Silverfrog, the complexity of what you describes shows that medicine is subjective. This is why it IS important to investigate and prove or disprove causal relationships. Without definite proof we can not say that the situation will improve.
We do not for definite that a decline in the uptake of MMR is directly causally related to an increase in deaths from the measles vaccine to the tune of 450 deaths per day

Again, this is about risk versus benefit. Im glad that you were able to make the correct decision for your child

LG, thank God you came along, I was starting to feel just a tad victimised for asking questions!