Debate on Vaccines

[Emsyboo]

I have seen a few threads where mums have an opinion pro or con vaccine and asking for more information I would like to know your reasons for being one or the other.
My MIL is very anti vaccine and told me 4 out of 30 children die from vaccinations - I don't believe this to be true think their may be a decimal point missing although I have seen some posts from people who seem to have backed up information about vaccines.

I am pro vaccine but like to see both sides before I make a decision so if anyone has any information pro or con and more importantly has info to back up I would be really interested.

Thanks

"and it may not have and probably wouldn't have looking at the current epidemic"

One doesn't follow from the other actually.Considering how the outcome from scarlet fever has improved I think there is certainly evidence that it was possible. (yes, I read what you wrote about your 'healthy' BIL (more anecdotes) but chances are if he's had it 100+ years ago he would be dead - he was 'threatened' with hospital? So he recovered at home then? This proves what exactly?

seeker - I corrected in my next post - it should read

""People were less likely to die from those diseases in developed countries prior to vaccines being introduced."

due to improvements in sanitation, living conditions, availability of healthcare etc. Most of the improvements had already happened prior to the introduction of the vaccine.

"Am I right in thinking that there are people who think that there should be no vaccinations for anything?"

"YOu have hit it in one, seeker!"

get a room you guys - and invite the straw men

imageiene did you even come round to working out why - if for the sake of argument we say smallpox vax wsa successful - that helps you to the conclusion that MMR parents are lying?

"I will reiterate - the current outbreak in is caused by unvaccinated teenagers/children who are now passing it on to those that are unable to be vaccinated. Is that clear enough."

why would you reiterate this when you've just been proved wrong?

this is typical pro-vaccine - say it enough times and you think it makes it true

"Countries that do not have those basic things that we take for granted (quite obviously in your case) still have high rates of mortality and morbidity - even if vaccination is available to them."

This is certainly true.

In the case of polio, I can't see a case at all for vaccinating in crowded slum areas with poor sanitation. The vaccine used is nearly almost always OPV, where wild virus can be shed. Live virus + diarrhoea + poor sanitation (by which I mean piles of shit and diarrhoea around living areas) doesn't sound like the best way ahead.

Yes that is actually how the system works: advertising campaigns based on no evidence, ignoring complaints and contradictory information, no transparency at all. It has been able to create such a strong belief system which if we dig deeper has no substance at all.

Could we have a show of hands and a brief synopsis of the salient points? I only have 5 mins before ds wakes up from his nap and it's MMR day today
All those in favour say 'aye'
All those against say 'nay'
If u wouldn't mind giving brief reasons it would be most helpful. Thanks in advance!!

"why is it a child's responsibility to avoid a mild childhood illness in order to protect a grown woman"

did you answer this?

this risk is greater for the one-year-old with a still developing immune system and a triple vaccine and when it's got twenty years to wear off so might not even protect the vaccinated person themselves

why does the one-year-old have to take the risk on behalf of a grown woman with potentially small benefit to themselves or no benefit at all in the case of boys?

I don't get this - someone explain why they honestly believe this is fair and appropriate and sensible and healthful and an appropriate risk-benefit analysis

oh you're going to do it

come on if you had serious doubts you'd have thought about it before now

Good luck - I hope it goes well

I haven't done two of mine and I don't like it one little bit and if it was me I would be phoning up with a "virus" but yknow

I don't persuade people not to, I persuade people to read up on it and inform themselves beyond NHS online and you don't have time for that

Why are you afraid of these childrens diseases? A homeopath stated about 20 years ago in a discussion about vaccination that for him every long-term damage due to any children's disease has been caused by a wrong treatment of that illness.

"imageiene did you even come round to working out why - if for the sake of argument we say smallpox vax wsa successful - that helps you to the conclusion that MMR parents are lying?"

You would ahve to be incredibly stupid to come to a conclusion like that. AND NOBODY HAS SAID ANYTHING OF THE SORT!!!!!!!

I may have muddied the warers a bit, because I didn't realize that people (apar from a few religios nutters) were opposed to vaccination per se and think that it doesn't work at all for any disease. I'm just getting my head round that concept.

Oh go on then I can't live with myself

There's evidence that a small group of children are more vulnerable to MMR but there's no way as yet of identifying who might be in that group.

There's evidence that the risk from the vaccine might be greater than is officially acknowledged.

There's certainty that if anything does go wrong you will be on your own, any damage with not be acknowledged, no one will thank you for being socially responsible. People who have complained of vaccine damage have been threatened with having their children taken off them, having their homes re-possessed, it's denial denial denial all the way. So don't think you'll be supported if you go ahead. You won't be.

But you really shouldn't do anything on anyone else's say so. Not even people telling you to go ahead.

"I may have muddied the warers a bit, because I didn't realize that people (apar from a few religios nutters) were opposed to vaccination per se and think that it doesn't work at all for any disease. I'm just getting my head round that concept."

why are you doing that? has someone told you that on this thread? how did you come to realise it? who are these people of which you speak?

so - you don't think they're all liars? in your own time

Gb!!!!
Ur confusing me!!! Who are u quoting? Are they what u think? Or what u are trying to argue against?
What's ur biggest issue?
Do vaccines have a place in modern medicine? If not why do we have them? If they do have a place, what is that place?? X

what about all the other questions

rubella

are all those mmr parents liars

spread of measles

Seriously - today is your child's MMR and u are asking "Do vaccines have a place in modern medicine?"

I think u need a little more time. Look through some previous threads on here - one is entitled MMR - hype or theory - and it's full of interesting information and links.

Good luck with your research and I hope things go well at the doctors.

One issue at a time?
Do vaccines have ANY place in modern medicine?

I'm not asking cause today is Mmr day, I'm asking because this thread is hugely confusing and I'm struggling to surmise what u are actually trying to say.
Thanks, ds will be fine

The answer is, they have a HUGE place in modern medicine. They are considered central and essential to a nation's health. Some people don't like them. Modern medicine likes them very much.

And do u agree with that?

It is a reality, isn't it. Even paid for by the government. But that does not say anything about its value.

This is all very odd. What I think is less important than what u think after reading more on the subject. What I think is important for my children: what u think is important for your children. If you don't know either way at all, are completely in the middle, then you can get one side from NHS online and most routine med health information. U have to dig deeper for the other side but there are plenty of routes to it if you want to find out. Google Richard Halvorsen, the Jabs website and so on. There are many previous threads here and many links. There's no rush if u are content that all will be fine at the dr today. It's a big subject area and it's nice to have time to assess the information.

Stop putting words into my mouth! You do yourselves no credit and you do your arguments about MMR no credit.
I am just trying to highlight that some people on this forum are implacable and fundamental vaccine deniers. Vaccines don't work and do more harm than good is where they are coming from. They and the homeopaths know best and the entire medical, public health, epidemiology and immunology communities are just plain wrong.
"People were less likely to die from those diseases in developed countries prior to vaccines being introduced." That is just plain wrong. Talk to someone who is in their 80s and they will tell you what it was like.
This kind of stuff really detracts from your concerns about MMR.
Here's a thought experiment - You're a parent in East Africa. You are heading for a refugee camp. There are epidemics of measles and other infectious diseases threatened. Your children have never been vaccinated. When you arrive do you join the vaccination queue or do you tell yourself that the vaccines will not protect them and may do more harm than good?
I am anticipating that you will not give a straight answer...
Like you won't give a straight answer to "Would you agree that the vaccine responsible for the eradication of smallpox in both rich and poor countries."

Spreading fear ist of course the best means to sell vaccines. It is called blackmailing.

And as soon as you ask for mor detailed and precise information they never come back to you.