MMR TV Programme on TONIGHT!

[Davros]

There's a programme on BBC3 (digital/cable) tonight at 9pm-10pm called The Third Degree - MMR Can You Decide?

Thanks davros- I always end up screaming at the tv when I watch these programmes though. Not sure my blood pressure can bear it.

PS I've posted a link under vaccinations mercury etc to a radio show about thimerosil that you may find interesting. There's a bit at about 28 mins the UK vaccination schedule being the worst in the world for increasing the risk of developing autism.

I noticed this in the TV guide on Sunday, cheers for the reminder. Have had a head in the sand attitude up to now but with dd being 10.5months, I need to get my research in.

Thanks Davros, out tonight but will get someone to tape it.

Great Davros, thanks for letting me know. Will watch it (this is SamboM btw have changed name)

I can't believe the "I am an automaton" HV was classed as an expert! I didn't scream at the TV too much. Thought the paed shot himself in the foot. Did I mishear or did he say that if you had an immune system deficiency the the viruses would remain in your body? Err isn't that what's happened to the MMR damaged autistic kids (vaccine measles virus recovered from gut and spinal fluid)?

I was one of the unfortunates who went to the Elstree clinic (now closed down) for single jabs. Now these may not be valid and I have to decide whether to try to get more single jabs (there is a local private clinic who administer these) or opt for the MMR. I eagerly watched this program last night but found it all pretty useless - nothing I hadn't heard before. The actual style of the show with musical interludes was so irritating. Did anyone else watch it?
Jimjams - sorry but I do not fully know your story - do you believe your child was affected by the MMR jab? Thanks

I watched this and veered from one view to the other as the programme progressed - agree on the annoying camera angles and musical interludes.

What was strange was that our house mirrored the couples on the programmes - dh was like the men and siding with scientific 'facts' and I was on the undecided mums side and going on the emotional tip of a lottery that I didn't want dd to win.

I thought the most moving of the films was the woman with triplets. To my mind, it's not a coincidence that all 3 children developed autism at the same time. However, I did think that the man at St Ormonds Hosp made good arguements too.

Still undecided but glad I watched it.

Yeah except the man from Great Ormond Street also supplied quite a bit of misinformation.

What really annoyed me was the end when the presenter was saying "so you're going to ignore all the scientific evidence" and made it look like the couples were choosing on emotion.

As the BSE guy pointed out there is perfectly good research pointing out the possibility of a problem in a small number of children. Wakefield's work was good wor, whether or not the govt wants to start a smear campiagn against it. Others such as O leary in Dublin have found similar things. Paul Shattock at the ARu has evidence of a problem. In other words all the people who actually look at the children have found evidence of problems. No-one else has because they don't bother to look at the children.

I wanted to punch the GOSH guy actually. All the crap about "these mothers who think" and "put your trust in professionals who have your child's interests at heart". I don't se may consultant peadiatricians helping me clean the sh** off my walls. ALos consultant peadiatrician or not I have yet to meet one who has read as much on vaccination and autism as me.

Grommit- no my child was not affected by the MMR jab, although he was possibly affected by other vaccinations and antivirals and definitely by antibiotics and herpes infection.

An example of the misinformation from GOSH dr.

He said something along the lines of "oh there was a paper in 1999 form the Royal Free (ho ho) which showed that the rise in autism was not linked to the introduction of the MMR"

er except that paper (Taylor et al) does show a rise in autism rates exactly at the time the MMR was introduced (the authors do some clever stats to get round this little problem). It's been discredited by just about everyone except the dept of health who use it to "prove" that MMR is safe.

Although it was me who posted the info about the programme I didn't watch it as I already know what I think and, like Jimjams, I would want to put my foot through the telly
Jimjams is right about looking at the children. Brent Taylor has just reviewed other studies, most of which did not target a link between MMR and autism, he has not done a study directly on real children. Andrew Wakefield's study IS the science. It was peer reviewed and published in the Lancet and has been replicated. What more does anyone want? The fact still is though, that his work shows that there is a SMALL subgroup of children with autism who have measles in their gut. I am completely sure that my son was not damaged by the MMR or any previous vaccines but I am also sure that I know children who absolutely were affected. If you really want to understand all the studies and "science" you need to get the Private Eye MMR special report, its only £2.50 inc P&P. phone 0870 760 1711.
To the person who had separate jabs and now doesn't know if they need to be done again, get your child tested for immunity, your GP should be able to do it or oranise it, especially in view of the circumstances OR look up Holborn Medical Centre on Google.
Me and my hubby are truly "scienctific evidence only" people which is why we don't pursue many of the so-called biomedical treatments, I simply don't believe in them but I have no problem understanding that there is evidence that a small number of vulnerable children may have been pushed into autism by vaccines. Autism is for LIFE and I'm sure that more kids die from related issues because of it than they do from measles. Remember the mum who jumped off a bridge with her autistic child? THere are numerous stories all the time of autistic kids drowning, wandering off etc. I won't read them myself but they are there for all to see.
I actually wish that people who don't have tangible reasons for avoiding MMR would go ahead and do it. Then it would be easier for those of us with real reasons to get away with not having it. But, of course, some of those kids would be the ones who don't seem to have any risk but then still develop autism.
There's just no easy answer but I am sick of the government just pusihng POLICY. There seem to be similarities to BSE, Gulf War syndrome, ME too.

Once again I'm almost in total agree ment with Davros (disagree about biomed intervention but only because I think Shattock's work is pretty good evidence- at least for gf and or cf - and again only for some children- especially those whose guts have been buggered by too much antibiotics- anyway I digress).

The Private Eye supplement is good as is the What Doctors Don't tell you MMR supplement.

Gulf War Syndrome is interesting. Here's one link particularly interesting to me as ds1's urine sample gives the same result as the gulf war veterans. Does lead me to wonder personally what the f* is going on!
Also interesting becuase the MOD had pretty strict guidelines for Gulf War II about the administration of multiple vaccines. D of H didn't seem so bothered about follwing those guidelines for babies.

Honestly the whole things stinks. Lies, deliberate misinformation. I know that it is good and noble to protect against disease, but not if it leads huge numbers of children becoming debilitated by autism. The cost is too great.

Davros have you found that not suspecting the MMR in your case has made the MMR cases more convincing? It has for me as when you listen to the parents of MMR damaged children they do tell a different story to those afected earlier.

Hi Jimjams, have not been very active on MN this weekend due to horrible chest/throat gripping pain and busy time with son and baby!!
Feeling confident that my son was not vaccine damaged and knowing that autism is in my family at least in 2 other people, I think has made me very able to accept that there are people who have had a very different ASD experience to us e.g. children who regressed, who were sickly babies and had lots of antibiotics, who are more likely to benefit from GFCF. I haven't found though, that people whose children are like this are particularly interested or supportive of people like us! You probably missed the "Great Secretin rush" which was horrible. THe pressure was immense on parents to inject their, usually non-verbal, children with a substance that had not been approved or tested for this purpose and the kids couldn't tell them how it made them feel, so-called "doctors" were taking fortunes off them. I have experienced pressure about GFCF, mercury chelation, supernuthera, B6 & magnesium, Vit E and probably others I can't think of. I don't even believe in homeopathy and it has been proved to be ineffective other than a placebo effect which I wouldn't get as I don't believe in it!!! I do think there are a lot of parents managing a diverse regime of "biomedical" interventions without co-ordinated input from good professionals. Although they are absolutely doing this for what they believe is their child's own good, I have a lot of misgivings aboiut the bigger picture in some cases. I don't see why these parents should have to manage their child's regime wihout support but, unfortunately, that's the way it is at the moment. I have seen many parents get on the GFCF/biomedical route with all the best intentions but it can become a treadmill, they are often terrified to give anything up "just in case" and they lose track of what effect individual treatments are having and I know plenty who hate the whole thing but just can't let themselves stop. However, if you're child regressed, the feelings are so different as you are bound to want to try to track down what caused it and what might make things better. Not having had that experience its easy for me to look on and not take part. Out of the many ASD children I know, I can honestly say I know only two who are different with or without gluten (one "LF" and one "HF", who both have digestive problems.

Have to say I've always found the secreting thing a bti scary- along with chelation therapy. A friends ASD daughter was given chelation therpay (not for her ASD but because she had lead poisoning). This was all done under medical supervision by a consultant paed and it was still pretty terrifying. I'll try anything , as long as it is safe, and for me secretin and chelation are definitely NOT safe.

Agree about doing one thing at a time. For us the big effects have been gluten and strangely enough peanuts. On peanuts ds1 was simply a headbanging lunatic. I suspect he can cope with small amounts but when he was having peanut butter twice a day(just ground organic peanuts according to the label) he was completely out of it. Likewise gluten and recently sorbitol. Other things like apples he's fine with, and I'm not convinced about removing milk in his case (although I've never done a complete cf diet when he's been gf becuase of diet limitations). He's a fairly classic case though. No autism in the family- but lots of autoimmunity, and a regression following stacks of antibiotics together with a diet limitation at the same time (from eating everything to literally only eating bread). And the positive Sunderland urine result. They seem to be pretty good predictors- I only know one other person who has trialled the diet for any length of time- her test result said they couldn't find any problem- and there was no change the whole time she tried it.

It would all be easier with support, I think people do panic and rush into everything at once. We have tried to try one thing at a time. The Sunderland protocol is quite good and makes the point quite strongly that you should only continue with any intervention if seeing an improvement. In your case your son sounds like exactly the sort of person I wouldn't expect the diet to work!

I always think its a shame when these autism camps seem to spring up. I'm sure you've come across people who are very vociferous about ABA (both for and against) and I always think its such a shame that we can't kind of pick and choose interventions that would suit our individual children without it being political. I always think I know my son better than anyone else, and I know what has worked for us, and what is likely to work- I wouldn't presume to know what would work for anyone else's child or family. I just think we've got enough to cope with when facing the NT world without everyine fighting amongst themselves. It was a problem on Aut-Uk for example although seems to have died down somewhat. chatters was always fine- I haven't managed to get anywhere with getting an invitation though I did try!. I suspect I haven't been contributing enough myself recently to be given any favours Been on mumsnet too much.

Hope you're feeling better. I've got gastric flu- bleargh.

Oh got to disagree with you about homeopathy btw as I'm training to be one One day I may try homeopathic secretin! I'll let you now if it works for us!

One thing I've always said is that if a dietary intervention is going to work you see the change within days. It's always been like that for us- and it has to be a change that's big enough for people outside the family to comment on. I find it hard to believe that if a change is seen months after trying a diet it can be linked.

So you haven't tried sweat therpay then? I saw a great one recently. You connected to a computer site (after paying loads of dollars) then you watched some funny line then you were cured. i think alien conciousness was involved somewhere, I do hope there aren't people out there desperate enough to pay for that!

I'd forgotten about sweat therapy! Homeopathy was recently proved ineffective other than the placebo effect by Horizon which tried very hard to prove it's efficacy in order to win $1million put up by an American millionaire to anyone who can prove it works - no-one has! The placebo effect is very interesting but, as I said, you have to believe in whatever treatment in order to get a placebo effect!
I agree with you about politics in autism, that's one reason I don't subscribe to Autism-UK. I've always tried to understand and, when appropriate, represent people with different experiences but most people just DO NOT do this. IME being like this has actually helped our individual case with local health profs, LEA, soc svs etc as they view me as a reasonable person and they actually listen to me!! I often have to bite my tongue though

aaaahh that Horizon programme had loads of flaws in it though.... Always problems doing sensible trials of homeopathy but there have been some good ones during epidemics showing a majorly good preventitive effect, and also some good ones on cows preventing mastitis (no placebo effect there!). Having spent too long in research labs (hated the place) I tend to take any studies with a pinch of salt. Like to read them very carefully to see what hasn't been accounted for, what has been ignored etc. These days I trust my own eyes more.

I think one problem wih places like Aut-Uk is you get a dangerous mix of HFA adults and parents of LF children. The parents try various approaches, the HFA adults think they are tyring to stop their children being autistic because they hate autism, when really the parents are trying to help their children become HF, and would be estatic if their children were HF. It can all get a bit nasty. Still get lots of good tips on there though.

As far as I know there is NO research without flaws but there are still certain types that are better than others (e.g. randomised, controlled, followed up, replicated etc). Having worked in research until recently we used to joke about doing research into research but we all decided that was a bad idea as we'd all be out of a job
Therefore I still tend to go with what research is available, not enough I know. The NAS is just setting up a research trust and they will be looking for good ideas very soon.

OMG you should have seen the arguements about the NAS on Aut-UK

Agree about some research being better than others, but trouble is you can't even trust that unless you go to the trouble of actually reading the stuff yourself iykwim. For example according to the D of H dear old Brent Taylor's (isn't that an oil platfrom?) work represents the pinnacle of researhc that "prove" the safety of MMR, whilst Andy Wakefield's research shows nothing and is to be laughed at, when as we both know it's not quite like that.

Shouldn't be on here- got to tidy up- ds1's teacher is coming to see us today..... He's still screaming on and off about "an" though (see message under urgent in other subjects)- just have no idea what it is....

Just re reading an old thread about MMR and noted people said they were putting off the vaccine until their children were old enough (that is, older than 1 year).
Is there an optimum age for MMR or the single jabs? My ds is coming up for one and I don't want him to have MMR or the single jabs (still undecided) until his immune system is a bit stronger (he had a v bad reaction to his last Hib jab).
Any suggestions on a good age?

bluecow- probably the most reliable age to have the MMR (in terms of it being likely to work- this is particularly the measles bit) is post 18 months. Best not to have it before 15 months at earliest (for the same reason).

dinosaur the nas stuff is very political and tbh I'm ot sure of the background. i think it has been less than helpful when people set up local independent support groups. however a couple of people have left now (one was very pro one very anti) so the NAS arguments have stopped.

Missed this prog which is a pity. Have been asked by my HV when I am going to get dd vaccinated - she turns 17 months tomorrow but having read your comments jimjams may leave it for a bit longer. I left ds till he was 21 months ironically suspecting that I would know if he was autistic before then (I did have a few very early suspicions) but he seemed OK. However there was no link with the vaccine with him as he's always been in excellent health, never taken antibiotics etc.

Eulalia, sounds like our sons are of the same group. Mine was never "as he should have been" and I couldn't see any difference before/after vaccines. He is also strong as an ox, never had an antibiotic etc. Can't you get support from your GP not to give your daughter the MMR if you don't want to? You have far more reason than most. My GP has said I don't have to give my 6 mos daughter the MMR but its a way off yet. I would certainly hold out as long as possible to allow your daughter's immune system to become more mature and for her to get a bit more fat on her! I have given the baby her early vaccinations but have made sure I got mercury-free and spaced them out and made sure she was well on the day. I'd hate for her not to be protected against tetanus for instance and I know someone slightly (very good friend of my niece) whose child died recently from meningitis. Its all such an ordeal!!