MMR - looking for links to authoritative arguments for and against

[Pennies]

Hubby & I are in the process of deciding if DD will be given the jabs individually or going for the MMR triple jab.

Does anyone know of where we can find links to arguments for both options from proper, reputable medical sources so we can try and make some kind of informed decision.

Thanks.

Death and mortality statistics for Measles:
Deaths from Measles: 2 deaths reported in USA 1999 (NVSR Sep 2001)
Death rate extrapolations for USA for Measles: 2 per year, 0 per month, 0 per week, 0 per day, 0 per hour, 0 per minute, 0 per second.
Death statistics for Measles: The following are statistics from various sources about deaths and Measles:
1 person died from measles each year in the US 2001 (Deaths, Final Data for 2001, NCHS, CDC)
Disease death statistics for measles by worldwide region:
About 311,000 deaths from measles in Africa 2002 (The World Health Report, WHO, 2004)
About 196,000 deaths from measles in South East Asia 2002 (The World Health Report, WHO, 2004)
About 6,000 deaths from measles in Europe 2002 (The World Health Report, WHO, 2004)
About 70,000 deaths from measles in Eastern Mediterranean 2002 (The World Health Report, WHO, 2004)
About 28,000 deaths from measles in Western Pacific 2002 (The World Health Report, WHO, 2004)

Very few in countries with good health care I would guess ('Europe' covers so many places and differing conditions)- but I still think reductionism is a good decision making technique.

sophable- I do somewhere - I think its none except for children/adults with other conditions. Will look though.

Jimjams I am sure you're right about the heredity. But can I just say this- and I really, really am not getting at anyone- I know you are very well informed about Autism and respect you very much indeed. But other people (more in RL than on here so really just ranting) seem to think that AS is OK, not really a prob. Due to DS's violence I haven't slept more than 2 hours in four years (I have to check him that often as he has nearly killed both our toher sons), DH has become depressed due to lack of sleep, I have had to give up work and life at times can be frankly hell. God I'm sorry - mini breakdown! PLease ignore

PeachyClare- honestly I know that (and I aso know that I'm lucky in that the extent of ds1's disablilties are obvious to all). I just meant that in your case jabs almost certianly weren't involved in your sons autism whereas we think they were in ours. Therefore we have different risk/benefit ratios iyswim. If jabs aren't going to make the blindest bit of difference in the likelihood of developing autism in your familt then you may as well go for them. Do you see what I mean? I wasn't trying to downplay the difficulties of AS at all, sorry if it sounded like I was....

I would say the risk factors in a family - that make vaccinations more dangerous than for the average Joe are a history of gut problems and/or autoimmune conditions in the family.

No. I'm sorry, I know you didnt mean that- but so many people do. For example, the Raising Kids website says that kids with AS are never violent.... !!!! I WISH! My youngest has permanent scarring to his eyes and head, and DS2 is so badly treated we had to report DS1 to SS in a desperate attempt to get help- help was refused. We need a DX in Wales as thenone in Somerset doesn't stand here. 9 months left on the waiting list...

Sorry, just v v tireed

Why doesn't the dx stand??? Madness! And as for children with AS never bneing violent! Where on earth did they get that from?

I'm not sure how reliable current statistics for measles are. I'm not a doctor, but my understanding is this. In this country, we had had routine immunisation for many years - a high proportion of people are immunised and there is "herd immunity". People who aren't immunised are protected because it just isn't around. If the immunisation rate drops, the protective effect of herd immunity is lost, which is what is apparently happening in some areas. I have no idea how kind of healthcare we have now would deal with a measles epidemic. What I'm trying to say is that if you are making a decision re MMR, then you should be looking at the pros and cons of that, not current measles statistics. If you choose not to have MMR or single vaccines (and I know there are people who have very good reasons not to have either) you are relying on other people being immunised to protect your children.

Don't know. I tried to print off stuff as we had an assessment by a charity who MIGHT give us the funds to take DS1 to BIBIC, and realised I had to bin it as it was the opposite of what I needed! 'There is no established link between AS and violence. In fact, AS sufferers are far more likely to be strictly law-abiding than the average person.'

or you're not too bothered about your children getting measles (I'm not whilst they're young- may give single jab at about age 9 or 10)

hmmm may be true in adulthood- but not necessarily true until coping strategies have been learned. I think it's true that they're unlikeyly to be yobs, but an overloaded sensory systen can definitely = aggression. You should have seen dh after a very stressfull (for ds1) trip we took to Ireland last year when he was 5. DH looked like he had been bottled- no joke- he was covered in blood- 1st thing said on arrival "what on earth happened to you". DS1 wasn't being aggressive towards dh- it was a response to fear.

Jimjams - how about mumps and rubella? I'm more interested really in those two, as my mum lost a rubella-damaged baby back in the days when only girls were given the jab, and my brother has just had mumps - VERY nasty in a twenty something!

not bothered is the wrong word- I don't particularly want them to get measles, but whilst they're young my fear of the disease is less than my fear of the jab. That may change as they reach the age where measles tends to be more serious (puberty).

I agree with what you're saying BeckyBS (excellent name BTW!). Am anxious though that this thread does not turn into a debate about deciding whether to immunise or not. For me and my OH the decision to immunise is already made, it's just the issue of combining them in one (a la MMR) or doing them seperately that I seek some clear advice on.

However, Jimjam's info is interesting and relevant to me for the purposes of my query because she has clearly looked into everything to determine the caues of her DS's autism.

I think the trouble with finding "unbiased" information is that really everyone has a viewpoint, and it has become such a hugely emotional subject that opinions have just become more and more entrenched. Like PrettyCandles, I looked at some research papers (although by no means all of them), spoke to my GP and a friend who is a virologist, and went for the MMR (against considerable opposition from MIL unfortunately). Not vaccinating at all was not an option for me.

ds1 has had rubella (caught from a vaccinated child btw), ds2 was exposed then - not sure if he got it. would rather natural infection really. Mumps- i hope they'll get when young. if not I'll rethink later. They're goimg to need to introduce a teen MMR booster anyway (as they have in the States) as protection is wearing opff in young adults- and the diseases are of course nastier in adults.

pennies - there has been some suggestion that having multiple jabs of any sort) increaes the risk if you have autoimmune conditons- afaik there is nothing reliable published on this though- it is theoretical.

Mumps alters the permability of membranes (the virus I mean whether live or on the jab), so that's why children with gut proiblems may be more at risk- they already have some damaged membranes (a lot of children with gut problems have leaky memebranes elsewhere as well- eg a more permeable than usual blod brain barrier- add the jab- more permeabiloity still add mealses in - and hey presto you find it in the Cerebro Spinal Fluid.)
If you are concerned about gut problems then it could be relevant and singles may well be "safer".

JimJams - I hope you don't think I'm having a go. Given your situation I'm sure I would feel exactly the same. However, given my family history, I am very strongly pro immunisation. It was me that passed on rubella to my mother when I caught it pre-immunisation.

alhough should be said the risk from MMR is probably still going to be low.

Might sound a thick Q but what do you mean by autoimmune condition?

It's always swings and roundabout though isn't it. My mother is deaf in one ear from measles and used to be pro the jab. But she is absolutely not now (since ds1). You can never have 100% guarantee either way- it's just weighing up the pros and cons.

diabetes type 1/ MS/ crohns (particular risk)/ arthritis/ lupus etc etc.

jimjams... is (in your opinion) autism caused by jabs down to an existing auto-immune problem?

Nope. There are many roads to autism. Some will have a very large genetic factor (100%??), some will be genetic + environment, some may be lack of oxygen at birth etc etc. One route to autism is probably an inability to remove heavy metals from the body (that;s the genetic bit- you;re missing the proteins, or producing the wrong ones) but if you don't meet a heavy metal you'll be fine. But if you inject a vulnerable (because their heavy metal detox system isn't working) 8 week old baby with thimerosal- as happened until last year, then that particualr baby may well be stuffed. They may only be partially stuffed and the job may be finished off with exposure to a virus (wild or jab).

Of course a virus in itself can cause problems. Pregnant mothers who caatch rubella very early on in their pregnancy (5th week) for example often had autistic children.

What Hornig's research showed was that mice of a strain that were prone to autoimmunity were susceptible to autistic like changes if exposed to thimerosal at an equivalent time and in an equivalent quantity to human infants receiving dtps. If the strain of mice was not prone to autoimmunity they were fine. Ties in with the research on humans (eg 99% of autistics have problems with metallothionein proteins- involved in heavy metal detoxification, autistics have less mercury in their hair (which is how its excreted)- where is it? brain?)

When you talk about "autism" you are not talking about one condition with one cause. You are talking about a collection of different conditions ranging across a huge spectrum (Bill Gates to non-verbal adult still in nappies), and certainly with multiple causes.

Autism triggered by MMR is probably a tiny subset of that group (approx 7% according to best estimates).

interested that you refer to the MMr as a child I work with is suspected (by parents) to have become autistic through DTP but I had never heard of it before.

My homeopath reckons dtp is much more of a threat.

So, is their any point me worrying about a booster?