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General election 2024

The effect of VAT on private school fees.

155 replies

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 30/05/2024 15:15

If this is brought in, and it seems likely it will be, I've been thinking a lot about how it's going to shape things in future.

Personally I think it's outrageous to introduce it from day 1 and it should only be introduced immediately for new pupils who are not already in (or signed up to be in) the private system.

Parents should have at least 1 academic year of notice that VAT will be levied on their fees, as their child moves up through each stage of their education, between infants, juniors, year 7 or sixth form. Or in the case of public schools it would be moving from Prep to common entrance.

You should be exempt from paying VAT until your child reaches the end of whatever stage they are at, as it's a natural break with the opportunity to move into the state system with less trauma and disruption to the child. At least that way, you'd have fair warning and plenty of time to make alternative arrangements. People with kids in private junior school will be pushing really hard to get them through the 11+ and hopefully into a super-selective state grammar school, but plenty already do that anyway and only keep their children in private school from year 7 onwards if they are unsuccessful at 11+.

The disruption to children will be terrible if they get pulled out mid-key stage or halfway through the two year GCSE programme, or whatever. Getting a state school place anywhere within sensible distance of home, let alone a good state school place is going to be hugely problematic.

Obviously it goes without saying that very good or outstanding state schools will already be heavily oversubscribed. I can see private school parents pushing up property prices around outstanding state schools (or decent Community Schools where they are obliged to take you at any stage so long as you live in catchment) even more than they already are, or renting out their main home and moving into catchment of those decent state schools in order to secure a place.

Either way, there is no doubt it's going to be carnage.

I'm thinking that as Home Education or Home Schooling is already a burgeoning thing, lots will go that way. But most people who were previously in the position of being able to pay school fees probably don't fit the typical profile of most home educators. The private school parents are most likely people running their own businesses or earning high salaries in professional or corporate jobs that require their full attention, so they are probably not in a position to undertake the home schooling themselves.

I see these parents potentially banding together to create Home Ed co-operatives where they sign their children up to online learning schemes, then collectively employ freelance teachers as private tutors, rent workspaces and meeting rooms etc.

So their 'home schooled' children now learn with with maybe 10 or 20 other children, five days a week, dipping in and out of different sessions according to age and subject and which teachers are available that session, to oversee and supplement the online learning.

It wouldn't take that much to organise and it would be far cheaper than private school if enough families grouped together to fund it.

OP posts:
crumblingschools · 31/05/2024 17:42

@SheilaFentiman and that is why many private schools have come out of TPS and I wonder if Academies will do the same. Especially as the Government don’t cover the whole increase in their funding to schools

Ayalga · 31/05/2024 17:46

SheilaFentiman · 31/05/2024 16:45

I am pointing out that it is a philosophically consistent point.

In a fully socialist approach, private healthcare and private education would be abolished, the railways would be renationalised, all that jazz. A socialist-lite approach to consider private provision of things that are available via the state to be luxuries and add VAT to them accordingly is consistent.

Additionally, many more people will have their private healthcare covered by work PHI payments than have school fees covered by work. In that sense, putting VAT on such services would probably lead to fewer people dropping back to state (and hence raise more in VAT income) than the VAT on school fees.

At least you show a consistency of thought that seems to be lacking in quite a few of the advocates of introducing VAT for private schools. A recent conversation with an advocate of banning private schools had been prefaced with a chat where she waxed lyrical about the private consultant that had performed minor surgery (mostly for cosmetic reasons) on her daughter...

Out of (genuine) curiosity, are there any examples of countries that come to mind that have VAT (or equivalent consumption tax) on education and health? The ones that I am familiar with do not and, in many cases, subsidise private education.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 17:50

Roundandroundthegard3n · 31/05/2024 17:29

After all these many, many threads about rich people complaining about paying VAT on a luxury product, i can't wait to vote for labour.

A good education is not a ‘luxury’ product.

If Labour, or any other government thinks it is, that is a grave mistake.

In middle class areas where there are successful state schools there can be rich people stashing money they have not spent in fees into very, very expensive houses they’ll be able to sell tax free. And if needed they’ll pay expensive private tutors to make up any shortfall.

Maybe if more people above a certain income were to pay some fees for state schools they could be funded properly and even very poor people have the best education money can buy sent their way in the form of dedicated catch up schools, and better food, from birth.

Roundandroundthegard3n · 31/05/2024 18:02

Of course private school is a luxury.

It's a bit silly to pretend that it isn't.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 18:23

I should have put that differently: a good education should not be considered a luxury but a priority and a necessity.

A good education is not a luxury, as in meaning not necessary, even though it costs money, whether state or private.

Scaevola · 31/05/2024 18:34

It doesn't really matter whether it's considered a luxury or not.

VAT isn't a luxury tax, it's a general sales tax. When we had to adopt it, on entrance to EEC, as it then was, all other sales taxes (including the previous luxury tax) had to be scrapped.

Having this as a headline policy is a clear signal that re-joining EU is not going to be even remotely on the cards.

As others have pointed out, EU forbids tax on education in schools, pre-schools and universities.

Dollenganger333 · 31/05/2024 19:41

There is absolutely no way that we’ll be able to rejoin the EU at any time - that ship sailed long ago thanks to people voting for something they had no idea the consequences of. No party is going to pick up that hot potato imo.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 19:43

Scaevola · 31/05/2024 18:34

It doesn't really matter whether it's considered a luxury or not.

VAT isn't a luxury tax, it's a general sales tax. When we had to adopt it, on entrance to EEC, as it then was, all other sales taxes (including the previous luxury tax) had to be scrapped.

Having this as a headline policy is a clear signal that re-joining EU is not going to be even remotely on the cards.

As others have pointed out, EU forbids tax on education in schools, pre-schools and universities.

There is not a general sales tax/VAT on children’s clothes though.

In fact lots of things are exempt from a general sales tax/VAT.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-and-services

VAT rates on different goods and services

A list of goods and services showing which rates of VAT apply and which items are exempt or outside the scope of VAT.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-and-services

Scaevola · 31/05/2024 19:51

Yes, there are a number of legacy zero-rated items - eg children's clothes (which are zero rated, not exempt)

But education fees are exempt across EU

Now that we are not in the EU, we can change exemptions, zero-ratings, basic rate, discounted rates - the whole shebang

We could even reintroduce a luxury tax, or any other version of sales tax.

Morph22010 · 31/05/2024 21:54

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 31/05/2024 10:36

But that's one on one. A tutor or freelance teacher can charge much more per hour for a larger group, but it still would work out much cheaper per child for the parent.

No it’s not she’s paying that for small group sessions, that’s what is charged nowadays for small groups in the day. Tutors won’t tutor a small group for same price as 1-1

Flyhigher · 31/05/2024 23:35

Serencwtch · 30/05/2024 18:36

The VAT should be imposed as soon as reasonably possible and definitely by the start of the 2025 academic year for all pupils.

It's up to individual schools how much of it they want to pass on to parents and how much they want to absorb through cuts elsewhere.

State schools have had to cope with cuts after cuts to school budgets & have had to reduce staff numbers, equipment etc so private schools could do the same & absorb the VAT themselves if they choose to.

This.

Flyhigher · 31/05/2024 23:36

Simonjt · 30/05/2024 18:39

Surely the parents shoudl just sell their flat screen tvs, smart phones, buy fewer latte’s and takeaway, then of course downsize and swap their expensive car for a cheap older one. Or is that advice only acceptable for those on a low income.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Flyhigher · 31/05/2024 23:37

crumblingschools · 31/05/2024 11:24

@Serencwtch so instead of trying to raise funding, standards, staff retention in state schools we should be bringing private schools down to the horrendous level that state schools are in.

The vat rise is to fund state schools.

Another76543 · 01/06/2024 00:10

Flyhigher · 31/05/2024 23:37

The vat rise is to fund state schools.

The optimistic IFS estimate gives a net benefit of around 1% of the state education budget. In reality it’ll be even less. Even the IFS say it will make little real difference to the amount available for public services.

Dollenganger333 · 01/06/2024 03:58

Simonjt · 30/05/2024 18:39

Surely the parents shoudl just sell their flat screen tvs, smart phones, buy fewer latte’s and takeaway, then of course downsize and swap their expensive car for a cheap older one. Or is that advice only acceptable for those on a low income.

Oh, but private education is not a luxury you see - it’s an entitlement according to some of the people on this thread.

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 01/06/2024 09:43

TheaBrandt · 31/05/2024 15:52

Oh dear god these threads! It’s all there is on here these days! Is it some bombing thing by Tory HQ?

As someone on another thread said only 7% of pupils are in private schools yet every last one of those mums is on mumsnet!

You have no obligation to open a thread or comment on it if it bores you. The clue was always in the title.

OP posts:
Grumpyoldpersonwithcats · 01/06/2024 10:43

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 01/06/2024 09:43

You have no obligation to open a thread or comment on it if it bores you. The clue was always in the title.

To be fair you also had no obligation to open yet another thread concerning VAT on school fees when a quick search shows twenty three (yes, really, I have checked) pre-existing threads on this topic of which seven were opened in May alone.
Happy 24th!

BobnLen · 01/06/2024 11:11

I guess it will make it more exclusive as the people that struggled to afford it will have to go to state school.

EasilyDefined · 01/06/2024 13:20

7 threads in a month isn't at all unusual on MN for a topic that's in the news to be fair.

TheShellBeach · 01/06/2024 14:47

EasilyDefined · 01/06/2024 13:20

7 threads in a month isn't at all unusual on MN for a topic that's in the news to be fair.

Well, maybe not - but they all say the same thing.

EasilyDefined · 01/06/2024 15:19

That's normal too

HeadDeskHeadDesk · 01/06/2024 18:12

Scavernick · 31/05/2024 15:58

You are probably right that the majority will still pay, certainly in public schools but not in small independents

This. People repeatedly equate small independent schools with public schools and they are quite different beasts in some respects. The smaller independent schools may well close, Eton and Harrow will not. Inequality will become even more entrenched. Truly only the very rich will be sending their kids private.

I think another difference that often gets overlooked is that most public schools require the students to have passed common entrance, or are in some way very selective.

Many small independents often take pupils who have mild or borderline SENs, or anxiety, school refusal or whatever. They aren't always the most obvious or most severe cases, so they don't meet the threshold that triggers specialist support in mainstream state school, due to budgetary limitations.

So out of desire to get their child the support they need, parents turn to small independents for help with dyslexia, ASD, ADHD etc., thinking that smaller class sizes and a more nurturing environment will help give them what state school cannot. These are often parents who find the money for school fees by the skin of their teeth because they feel they have no choice.

If those children were moved into state schools they aren't necessarily the ones who are going to bring the school's exam or SATS results up just by being there. Sometimes the opposite.

OP posts:
TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams · 02/06/2024 02:52

Using your maths, and budgeting for your worst case scenario (with no vat) you are talking £40k Pa per child.

A group of people employing someone over 50..% of their time is also obligated to pay for NI and pensions etc.
honestly. Your scheme is away with the fairies. You would need a teachers coop to make it work and even then it would be painful?

Morph22010 · 13/06/2024 14:43

I see that private schools are to lose exemption from business rates too

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