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Genealogy

British military question and g-granddad mystery

25 replies

AInightingale · 28/07/2025 22:29

I was researching my great grandparents and am a bit baffled. I can't locate a marriage certificate anywhere. (My mum hired a genealogist years ago and he checked military marriage records and couldn't find it either.) Period is the 1890s. My granddad's siblings were born 1892-1897. Yet when I look at their father's 10- year discharge papers from 1899, he claims to be unmarried and childless! Was this a common thing amongst soldiers? Surely they married all the time? Anyone know much about this area?

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Suffolkposy · 28/07/2025 22:31

Have you looked for a marriage for your Great Grandmother to someone else? It’s possible she was married to someone else and they couldn’t marry?

AInightingale · 28/07/2025 22:40

That possibility had occurred to me, yes. Or that he was married to someone else, very young? He joined up just before his 19th birthday, so possible. It's all such a mystery and everyone is long dead and there's no-one to ask!

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Suffolkposy · 28/07/2025 22:47

It’s possible it could be either of them. Where are they both in 1891? Is G Grandma at home with her parents or working somewhere? That census might say if she’s married or not? I mean she’s pregnant the next year so there might be a clue?

Ellmau · 28/07/2025 22:52

Soldiers needed permission to marry.

Have you looked for a marriage a bit later?

Latenightreader · 28/07/2025 22:55

My great great grandparents were listed as married with several children in the 1881 census but only really got married in 1908 after the birth of their 16th child! The best guess is that his first wife died around 1908 but I can't find anything about her after the 1871 census. He described himself as a widower in the 1908 marriage certificate.

My suggestion is to look later as they might not have officially married for some years, if at all!

AInightingale · 28/07/2025 22:57

No sign of her at home on the 1891 census. Girl with a similar name with an 's' on the end and age slightly out is working as a servant in her hometown - that's a possibility. At this point she would have been 21 and in very early pregnancy (April 1891- birth Jan 1892). Baby isn't registered either, although he died at 11, very sadly, and his death is registered with my g-granddad as father and informant. What complicates it is that they both decamped to Ireland at some point because their second child was born there. He was in the 'reserve' after 1894, whatever that was. Although soldiers were stationed in Ireland too. And Ireland's census for 1891 was destroyed. 😡

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Ellmau · 28/07/2025 23:08

Presume you've looked for that child being registered under his mother's maiden name?

The reserve means that he had left, but was available for recall if there was a war. My GGF retired after 21 years in May 1914 and went into the reserves, guess what happened then...

AInightingale · 28/07/2025 23:12

Yes, there is a little boy born in her parish with that name in Jan 1892 with the mother's name given as the same, so obviously out of wedlock. But it's not that uncommon a name in that part of the world. Would be a coincidence if it was another child, but there are a lot of those in researching as you've probably all found out...

What happened with your GGF in WW1 @Ellmau ?

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Suffolkposy · 28/07/2025 23:20

Double check marriages for her between her being 16-21. It could be she’s on the 1891 census under a married name?

Just trying to think where else there could be anything useful? Have you had a look at the British Newspaper Archive to see if there is a marriage report for either of them?

Have you checked for a much later marriage for them? If it was in Ireland then the National Archive here should have it National Archive Link

Wishing you lots of luck!

Latenightreader · 28/07/2025 23:34

Have the tried both Find My Past and Ancestry for the census? Same source material but different transcribers so occasionally you can find someone one one and not the other. Most library services have free access to both on site, and although you can't log into your account you can save docs and email them.

AInightingale · 28/07/2025 23:45

Yeah tried the newspaper archive, nothing. Will check the census under forenames but if that is the case, she could be literally anywhere in the county or the neighbouring ones! They're common forenames. Only know roughly time of the year when she was born -Oct/Nov. Widowed or estranged from a first husband, possibly.

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Ellmau · 28/07/2025 23:48

What happened with your GGF in WW1 @Ellmau ?

He was recalled as I think all the reserves were. He had been a noncommissioned officer, originally retiring as Regimental sergeant major, but either there weren't any RSM vacancies or they were desperate for officers because they gave him a proper commission on rejoining, not bad for someone who left school at 11 for agricultural labour.

He died in France of pneumonia caught in the trenches in 1917 :(

Ellmau · 28/07/2025 23:49

Would she have still been alive in 1939?

Yellowcakestand · 29/07/2025 00:18

I cannot find a divorce certificate for my nan who when she died we found out she was married when she met my grandad. To an older man who was abusive.
Were they even divorced?
Be careful what you look for. Through a website we found a likely illegitimate new uncle!

AInightingale · 29/07/2025 00:19

Oh that's really sad @Ellmau. He was so unlucky.
Just thinking reading your post that my great granddad must have missed the Boer War by a matter of months & might have been recalled.

She died in 1938 - was in NI anyway and I haven't seen any entries for that register for that region - was it just England and Wales?

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Ellmau · 29/07/2025 08:13

It might have been. NI makes all the research trickier.

Another2Cats · 29/07/2025 20:39

"Yes, there is a little boy born in her parish with that name in Jan 1892 with the mother's name given as the same, so obviously out of wedlock. But it's not that uncommon a name in that part of the world. Would be a coincidence if it was another child, but there are a lot of those in researching as you've probably all found out..."

There's a (relatively) cheap way of finding out if it is the person you're looking for - it costs £3.

From your description it sounds like you have the Civil Registration Birth Index for him?

If so then it is an easy matter to get a digital image of the actual birth certificate.

The information you will have will say something like:

Name: Babyboy Nightingale
Reg Data: 1892
Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Reg Place: eg Bristol
Volume: eg 5a
Page: eg 154

And this is what you need to order a digital image of his birth certificate.

If you go to:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexessearch.asp

and select "birth" and then the year of birth (you can include a range of +/- 2 years).

Then enter the surname and sex. You can also enter all the other details that you know eg first name, place of registration, volume, page etc.

You then hit "search".

It will come up with all the births that match that criteria - if you just enter the name then there will be several, but if you enter all the other info then there will just be one.

If you then click on the name of the person you are looking for you will be given three options for ordering: Certificate, PDF or Digital Image.

You then click on whichever option you want. The cheapest is Digital Image, which costs £3.

This will then take you to a page where you can order a digital image with all the information pre-filled so you don't need to repeat it.

If you then choose to pay for a digital image it is available immediately (although I've found that I need to log out and log back in again to actually see it).

Attached is an example of a birth certificate (this one is from my 3xG grandmother from 1848) that I downloaded this way. It shows that she was born in the workhouse and that her mother was unmarried (although her parents did marry the following year in 1849). The birth was registered by the Governor of the Workhouse.
.

"Yet when I look at their father's 10- year discharge papers from 1899, he claims to be unmarried and childless! "

I don't know if I can help much here beyond sharing a similar story, which was really quite sad.

I was tracing a relative and, incidentally, came across a relation called Charles, born in 1879. His father died when he was five and his mother died when he was 15.

He joined the Somerset Light Infantry as soon as he turned 18 in 1898 but then swapped to the Dragoons (a cavalry regiment). He went on to serve in South Africa in the Boer War and then in World War One. After that he joined the Mounted Military Police and he was then stationed in Mombasa, British East Africa (nowadays Kenya).

I think this perhaps gives an indication as to why the armed services were more popular in the past – perhaps they offered structure and support that young men were lacking?

During World War One he was awarded the Military Medal in 1916 and left the army in 1919. He married a woman named Gertrude in 1915 and he never had any children – or so I thought. But it turns out that he had an illegitimate child born in 1907.

In 1908 there was a Maintenance Order made against him and he was required to pay 1/9 per week until his daughter, Kathleen, reached the age of 15.

What really hit me though was that, in the 1921 census, Kathleen's father is recorded as being dead.

Perhaps Kathleen was actually told that her father had died (like it was stated in the 1921 census) even though, in fact, he had later married another woman in 1915. Maybe she went through her life thinking her father was dead when he was actually living in Croydon with his new wife.

Who was to blame for that lie? Did her mother not want to acknowledge to her daughter what had happened or did her father not want anything to do with her? (For context, her mother married another man in 1918 and went on to have three further daughters with her husband)

Either way, that's a terrible situation to grow up in.

Quite a lot of genealogy can end up being about serendipity. There is no way that anybody looking for the biological father of Kathleen would think of looking in the service records of a random soldier in Aldershot barracks.

But, doing it the other way round, I was reading this record of a guy who was awarded a Military Medal and then found out that he also had an illegitimate daughter that he was ordered to pay maintenance for. My DH said that we should add all of this to the tree so that other people can find it and don’t have to repeat the work.

The more I think about it the more I agree with my DH’s stance. If some descendant of Kathleen’s comes along in the future then they can find out who her biological father was.

Another2Cats · 29/07/2025 20:40

Sorry, this is the digital image of the birth certificate that I meant to attach.

British military question and g-granddad mystery
Another2Cats · 29/07/2025 21:58

Ellmau · 28/07/2025 23:08

Presume you've looked for that child being registered under his mother's maiden name?

The reserve means that he had left, but was available for recall if there was a war. My GGF retired after 21 years in May 1914 and went into the reserves, guess what happened then...

I'm sorry that I'm going way off tangent here.

"My GGF retired after 21 years in May 1914 and went into the reserves, guess what happened then..."

Yes, in a similar vein, my GGF (born 1889) served in the army from 1906 to 1913 and then went in to the reserves.

"guess what happened then..."

Same thing, he was mobilised and landed in France on 13th August 1914.

AInightingale · 29/07/2025 23:28

That's really helpful @Another2Cats. I will try that.
My great grandfather lived with his family (in Belfast) and was the father/ informant of the deaths of two little boys who died in infancy. Whether he was married to my g-grandmother is anyone's guess, why they didn't marry (it was hardly unheard of for a first child to be born out of wedlock) and why he deceived the military about it all! Very odd.

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coxesorangepippin · 29/07/2025 23:39

How on earth could people be listed as married, without actually being married??

AInightingale · 30/07/2025 00:35

Found it @Another2Cats. Came up straightaway. Yep definitely born 'out of wedlock' - did a census search for the address given on the birth certificate and it's her family home. The person writing out the birth cert actually had my great granddad's two forenames and her surname written down under 'father's name', before crossing them out as he obviously realised the parents weren't married. The brilliance of mumsnet! Thankyou!

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AInightingale · 30/07/2025 01:50

coxesorangepippin · 29/07/2025 23:39

How on earth could people be listed as married, without actually being married??

No welfare state in those days - the state didn't reach as far into people's private lives. No quick or easy way of checking unless you were really determined. Daresay that moving to another country gave them an excuse for 'losing' the marriage certificate somewhere along the way!

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Another2Cats · 30/07/2025 08:03

coxesorangepippin · 29/07/2025 23:39

How on earth could people be listed as married, without actually being married??

There wasn't such a demand for official documents then. If you said that you were married, people generally took your word for it.

Like today, although to nowhere near the same extent, people did live together back then without being married.

However, there was a stigma attached to this and women often just changed their name to match that of the man that they were living with so as to appear to be married.

Another thing to consider is that, until the Matrimonial Causes Act 1923 (and the later 1937 Act) it was very difficult to get divorced. Indeed, for anyone who wasn't wealthy it was practically impossible to get divorced.

If you split up from your spouse then you had to wait until your ex died before you could legally remarry. There were any number of court cases where people did go on and remarry before their ex had died and they ended up doing six to nine months hard labour in prison the crime of bigamy.

So, it was easier in this situation for the woman just to take the name of the man that she was living with until her ex died and then maybe get married later (I have seen this more than once).
.

It was a similar thing with birth certificates. I know of more than one case where a teenager lied about his age in order to join the army.

Likewise with getting married. From 1753 up until 1987, anybody getting married under the age of 21 needed to have their parents permission.

I have seen a couple of examples of women claiming to be over the age of 21 on the marriage certificate, but their birth certificate says otherwise.

There simply wasn't the same requirement as there is today to produce official documents.

AInightingale · 30/07/2025 09:02

Yes, one of my grandfathers lied about his age to join up in 1914. They were so desperate for manpower that they didn't question him too closely.

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