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Genealogy

Help please

19 replies

deeahgwitch · 30/09/2024 09:47

I'm doing my dh's family tree. He's on Ancestry.
His great great grandfather is supposedly German/Prussian.
Yet his DNA results re Ancestral regions show no "Germanic Europe" origin.
He is, according to Ancestry of:
Irish
Scottish
English and North Western European
Welsh
Norwegian
Swedish and Danish origins.

Does this mean that his great great grandfather wasn't his great great grandfather ?

OP posts:
TheSquareMile · 30/09/2024 13:12

@deeahgwitch

Not necessarily.

Could it be the case that he was born to parents of Scandinavian heritage who moved to Prussia when he was small?

What was his place of birth as given on the Census, OP?

holiverterwist · 30/09/2024 13:19

I found this article helpful, especially this paragraph:

'To divide people into groups, Platt told Live Science, researchers make decisions: For example, they'll say, the members of this group of people have all lived in Morocco for at least several generations, so we'll add their DNA to the reference libraries for Moroccans. And people who had one grandparent with that sort of DNA will hear that they're 25 percent Moroccan. But that boundary, Platt said, is fundamentally "imaginary."

https://www.livescience.com/63997-dna-ancestry-test-results-explained.html

Oldest Human DNA from Africa Reveals Clues About a Mysterious Ancient Culture

Burials from a cave in Morocco have yielded the oldest human DNA evidence yet from Africa, offering new insight into a mysterious ancient culture.

https://www.livescience.com/62131-oldest-human-dna-mysterious-ancient-culture.html

deeahgwitch · 30/09/2024 17:01

It was Hanover @TheSquareMile

Thank you and @holiverterwist

OP posts:
CopperTurquoise · 02/10/2024 00:19

Is it a direct paternal ancestor? Do you know his haplogroups?

Whereamigoingwiththis · 07/10/2024 16:37

deeahgwitch · 30/09/2024 17:01

It was Hanover @TheSquareMile

Thank you and @holiverterwist

Hanover was part of Prussia, in fact most of Germany was Prussian.

Whereamigoingwiththis · 07/10/2024 16:41

Prussia was officially abolished in February 1947

twomanyfrogsinabox · 07/10/2024 16:51

It's a long way back and DNA doesn't work to exact percentages, he may have very little of the Prussian DNA in his DNA. You would think it's 50% from one side and 50% the other through each generation, but it can be much more or less and you are going back 4 generations. And do you know where the great great grandfathers parents came from? Does he have any siblings that could get DNA tested or better yet a parent on that side to see if they have more of the Prussian DNA?

It is also possible to make mistakes tracing back ancestors that far, records tend to get more sparse and people with the same (or similar) name, in about the right place, born at about the same time can throw you right off on a wrong path. One of my lines is really solid and easy and another a nightmare.

DancingTurtle · 08/10/2024 16:24

Have his matches provided any evidence?

workplaceshenanigans · 08/10/2024 16:58

@deeahgwitch Great-great grandfather is only on average 1/16th of his DNA anyway, and that could easily be buried in the 'north west European' bit. It could also be that it was one of GGGrandfather's parents who was from that area, and the other was from somewhere else, so that would have reflected in his own DNA. People were surprisingly mobile in Europe and moved all over the place even in those days, and especially during times of conflict or war, or religious persecution.

deeahgwitch · 08/10/2024 18:13

CopperTurquoise · 02/10/2024 00:19

Is it a direct paternal ancestor? Do you know his haplogroups?

I'm sorry I don't understand the question. It's his father's mother's mother's father.
He became a naturalised British citizen circa 1870 and marred an English girl.
I say girl because she was only 16 to his 24 Shock

OP posts:
CopperTurquoise · 09/10/2024 09:57

deeahgwitch · 08/10/2024 18:13

I'm sorry I don't understand the question. It's his father's mother's mother's father.
He became a naturalised British citizen circa 1870 and marred an English girl.
I say girl because she was only 16 to his 24 Shock

I wondered if the DNA results showed haplogroups, which are handed down from parents. It can give more clues about where someone’s ancestors were from further back.

Men have Ydna from their fathers and MTdna from their mothers while women only have MTdna. 23andme include this information with their results but Ancestry doesn’t. They are usually letters and numbers like J2 or G2c for example.

newrubylane · 09/10/2024 10:07

CopperTurquoise · 09/10/2024 09:57

I wondered if the DNA results showed haplogroups, which are handed down from parents. It can give more clues about where someone’s ancestors were from further back.

Men have Ydna from their fathers and MTdna from their mothers while women only have MTdna. 23andme include this information with their results but Ancestry doesn’t. They are usually letters and numbers like J2 or G2c for example.

You have to take a specific DNA test for Y haplogroups. And it wouldn't help in this case as it's not a direct male line.

OP, as mentioned above, the ethnicity estimates are not an exact science - as the name suggests, it's an estimate. They change them all the time as they update the reference databases anyway, and different testing companies have different databases and give different estimates. If you tested with Ancestry, you could upload that DNA to MyHeritage and FTDNA and you'd likely get a different estimate from them.

The best way to find out where his ancestors came from is to build the family tree. DNA is a tool to help with genealogy, not a substitute for it.

You also have to consider the possibility that there has been some illegitimacy somewhere in the line that means that what's on paper isn't the truth.

There's lots to consider.

RedToothBrush · 14/10/2024 16:23

deeahgwitch · 30/09/2024 09:47

I'm doing my dh's family tree. He's on Ancestry.
His great great grandfather is supposedly German/Prussian.
Yet his DNA results re Ancestral regions show no "Germanic Europe" origin.
He is, according to Ancestry of:
Irish
Scottish
English and North Western European
Welsh
Norwegian
Swedish and Danish origins.

Does this mean that his great great grandfather wasn't his great great grandfather ?

No.

Ancestry updated their DNA sampling analysis last week. And tbh there's a fairly broad feeling that this update is particularly bollocks for anyone who is of significant British ancestry.

The problem is that Ancestry has identified certain markers they are attributing to Swedish, Danish and German (amongst others) ancestry. The problem is these same markers have been widely found within the British population for centuries meaning that Ancestry's analysis is fairly misleading.

It doesn't mean that you necessarily have a recent ancestors from a certain country. It means you have a DNA marker that is common in a certain place, but this marker could be a hang over from an older community migrating and integrating into the UK but then breeding within this same community thus retaining these markers.

We know that there was widespread settlements from the Angles, Saxons, Jutes as well as Vikings which reflect this.

There's complains that the last update over estimated Sweden/Danish ancestry and underestimated German ancestry. But the one last week is now over estimating German ancestry and under estimating Swedish!

People who have done extensive paperwork demonstrating their heritage have found that they have been on both sides of this with the profile reflecting this before the update and then loosing it post update or vice versa.

To use an example - my mum was coming up with FOUR ancestry regions last week. This week she's completely lost one of those four but she's now showing as having ancestry from SEVEN regions!!

Further to this huge numbers of Brits are complaining that they've all been given the subregion of the Channel Islands or the Island of Scotland. I managed my mum's, my dad's, my mil and DHs profile and this is definitely problematic from my paper research!!! Only my Mum and DH really should have the channel islands as realistic possibility!

The inability of Ancestry to properly separate Northern Western European ancestry from each other isn't understood by most people - the recent update and the reaction to it - highlights this problem well.

The DNA profiles can only give an impression of ancestry at this point, which is inaccurate and may have an alternative explanation.

Its only really accurate enough to give an echo of a much wider area rather than something more accurate than that.

My Dad is currently showing as part Icelandic. This is extremely unlikely for various reasons. We know from paperwork that part of my Dad's family was from the Scottish Highlands and it's much more likely that an individual or group way back when possibly even from Norway en route to Iceland added to the gene pool of a local Scottish community and this is ringing through the ages into my Dad's DNA.

In other words, you still need to back up the hocus pocus of an ancestry profile with your own papertrail - be that through your ancestry matches using other people's information to fill in gaps or your own trail of BMD chasing.

There isn't a short cut.

I'm finding that the profiles I manage do explain a lot of the 'noise' if you understand where in the UK your recent ancestors came from and what the history of that area was.

But beyond that, it really is largely noise.

You have to have a significant percentage from a particular area or a known ancestor from an area to be reasonably confident of ancestry from that region at this point. So 20 - 30% from one place is a good guide for that in the absence of known ancestor.

Anything under 10% is more likely to be noise.

If you know an ancestor to be from a certain place and this seems to find the DNA assume it does until you find something that counteracts that. If you have a known ancestors from somewhere and it doesn't fit the profile, consider whether alternative explanations from migration patterns still might explain this.

In other words it's all a bit crap really.

deeahgwitch · 14/10/2024 16:43

Thank you all, you are very kind to reply.
What I'm really trying to find out for dh is the background of his great great grandfather who was supposedly born in Hanover in 1850 and became a naturalised British citizen circa 1872.
I have no names for the 2x grandfather's mother or father.

2x great grandfather could have lied on his naturalisation application about his origins.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 14/10/2024 16:52

deeahgwitch · 14/10/2024 16:43

Thank you all, you are very kind to reply.
What I'm really trying to find out for dh is the background of his great great grandfather who was supposedly born in Hanover in 1850 and became a naturalised British citizen circa 1872.
I have no names for the 2x grandfather's mother or father.

2x great grandfather could have lied on his naturalisation application about his origins.

The DNA mix you have said doesn't rule out German ancestry even though your DH isn't showing German as a region!!! That's the problem.

Ancestry from Hannover could well show up as English and North Western European, Norwegian
AND Swedish and Danish in part.

When did you last check Ancestry for his breakdown?

Ancestry updated last Wednesday so if you haven't looked since then, it might show something slightly different!

RedToothBrush · 14/10/2024 17:16

I should add that DH and MIL had no German region showing last week, but do this week.

deeahgwitch · 14/10/2024 17:27

Yes !
DH is now showing 5% Germanic Europe.
He has lost his Welsh and Swedish/Danish ancestry but retained some Norwegian ancestry.
We couldn't figure out why he showed Welsh ancestry at 4% anyway when he had no known Welsh ancestors.
It has now dropped to 0%

@RedToothBrush did you post some time ago on an engagement ring thread ?

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 14/10/2024 17:35

deeahgwitch · 14/10/2024 17:27

Yes !
DH is now showing 5% Germanic Europe.
He has lost his Welsh and Swedish/Danish ancestry but retained some Norwegian ancestry.
We couldn't figure out why he showed Welsh ancestry at 4% anyway when he had no known Welsh ancestors.
It has now dropped to 0%

@RedToothBrush did you post some time ago on an engagement ring thread ?

Aha, that's good. I thought you might have a change given the update and the shift from Swedish/Danish to Germanic. Sounds like it makes a little more sense to you now.

That said the profiling is still far from reliable but it does make some sort of sense. You have to take it with a rather large pinch of salt!

I may have posted on a thread about an engagement ring before but I can't remember!

deeahgwitch · 14/10/2024 17:58

I think it was you @RedToothBrush that posted a beautiful ring and I asked where you had sourced it, but I got no reply.
I can't remember now even what the ring looked like but I think that was the ring owner's user name 😀
They certainly had toothbrush in their username.

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